2thfixr

Not the case for me. Per my previous post, I joined these forums to find out everything that I needed to know before purchasing my ES350. In fact, I was in the planning to get 2 ES350s and by pure luck (good or bad depending on how you look at it), I ended up with 1 GS and 1 ES. I made a thorough list based on the complaints on this forum. I test drove my ES thoroughly with the radio off and A/C off etc on a long stretch of quiet road. I looked specifically for transmission flare and wind noise. The car was brand new and had just finished PDI with delivery miles on it. It was cold and had never been test driven as it was taken from a holding lot and was originally covered with dust. Satisfied that it passed all of the items on my list, I signed on the dotted line. 800 miles later.... wind noise. The car has quite a bit of engine clatter @ startup also but it goes away when it warms up so that is essentially a non-issue for me. My 997S sounds just like a popcorn machine when cold as well so strange sounds are not significant to me as long as they go away when the engine warms up.

So to make a long story short, I checked my car over thoroughly before purchasing it but it didn't make a difference at all.

LexBob2

Just FWIW, I said I'd give MY car a 9.75 out of 10, not anyone else's. Trust me too when I say we recently completed a 2,500+ mile driving vacation and didn't experience the excessive wind noise problem, and I too know what wind noise sounds like. Are there problems/issues with some ES350's - Yes. Are there problems/issues with all ES350's - No.

2thfixr

Exactly my point. Not all ES350s have these issues, does this mean that we should all do a group hug around our ES350s singing kum-ba-ya and if someone asks about purchase advice we should all sit back and wax poetic about it's positive virtues while dismissing the few negative experiences? The ES350 problems that people are experiencing should not be dismissed as "concentrations of people venting and discussing unusual issues with their products". These are not unusual isolated incidents, they are common problems that seem to affect a fair number of vehicles. You and many others may be having "good luck" and have trouble free vehicles but there are some that have "bad luck" and share the same problems. As I said before, is this luck or is this a pattern?

A perfect example is the Airmatic pump on the GL450. A few people had some serious problems with airmatic pump failures on the GL450 when it was released. Did everyone have it? Absolutely not but MB did acknowledge that they had a bad batch of airmatic pumps from their supplier. Does the problem still exist? No, the pumps were replaced as necessary and the problems were rectified to everyone's satisfaction. Is this the same situation? No. If it were, none of these issues would be issues. These are problems with no solution. There is no fix and there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

LexBob2

I didn't make any comments about people who visit forums, but it sounds like we do agree that anyone considering the purchase of any car, should review as much information as possible, if they choose to. My point was to provide balance from someone who hasn't experienced any problems with that of others who have. IMO, I don't know that we yet know the exact extent of the serious problems surfaced on this forum. They're definitely out there, no doubt, but to what degree. I see on Edmunds 80 consumers have rated the car 9.4 out of 10, on MSN 46 reviewers have given it 9.0 out of 10 and on Yahoo 30 reviewers 2.5 out of 5. As I said, look at all the information before you buy and then make your choice. There are very few quarantees in life.

Kaius88

How can you be certain that a transmission issue will develop? Because you have wind noise? How are these 2 issues even related? If you believe that certain batches have all the problems, then maybe wind noise is correlated with bad tranny. I highly doubt it since the phases of manufacturing do not involve just one set of machines/people. I am confident in saying that a vast majority of the current ES350s have perfectly fine trannys. To compare the GS with the ES is like comparing apples and oranges. Since the GS costs about $10,000 more than the ES, but doesnt really have $10,000 more worth of bells and whistles than the ES, one should expect much of that added cost went into quality control. For the most part, you do get what you pay for.

2thfixr

"Almost certain" was the phrase I used and wind noise has nothing to do with the transmission issue. Consider some of the reported problems; wind noise - yes, bad door alignment - yes, engine clatter - yes, transmission flare - not yet but the car only has 1100 miles on it and there are cars out there with an 8/06 build date experiencing the problem. The tranny problem is not a problem at all for me. It hasn't happened (knock on wood) and I am hoping it never happens BUT, do I feel confident that it won't happen? No. Is the information out there indicating that it could develope? Yes. Is it being reported by more than a handful of people? Yes. Does the Camry have the same tranny and is the same tranny issue being reported all over the place by Camry owners? Yes. Will I be taking the time to check for transmission flare for as long as I own the car? Absolutely.

I agree, that's quite a stretch and definitely not words that came out of my mouth.

What is your basis for this statement?

I don't think that a GS should be considered a step up from an ES. The UL ES350 is pretty close in cost to a GS without nav or ML. There is probably more profit in the GS but I don't think there is any more quality. The GS also has a dash rattle issue that is quite common and reported by many 3GS owners. It seems to affect all 3rd gen GS models regardless of build date or model. As a matter of fact, my GS is going in this Thurs for a dash rattle along with the ES which is going in for the wind noise issue.
IMO the problem with the ES is that Lexus got hasty and released the car before it was ready. I read somewhere that they had released it several months before they had originally announced. They probably could have used those few months to do some quality control checks on the production line as well as some additional testing where they may have noticed the tranny issue on their own.

I might be giving the wrong impression, my .02 is that the ES has some common problems. These are not problems just being presented by people that congregate here for the sole purpose of bringing up "unique" issues. These are very commom issues among those having problems with their ES. Overall, it is superb car and if someone were to ask me about the positive attributes of the ES, I would say there are many. It's probably the best car on the market today @ it's price point. It is far better than most luxury cars out there and it does everything very very well. There is no drama with the car. Nobody has been left stranded anywhere and nothing is falling apart. My mother in law loves it, my wife loves it, my kids love it, I love it, we all think it looks great and rides great. Do we wish the wind noise issue could be resolved? Yes. Do I wish that I didn't have to take the car out every couple of weeks to check for shift flare? Yes. If someone asks me whether or not I recommend the ES350? I would tell them about the problems that people are experiencing and let them decide for themselves. Would I say that most ES350s are trouble free and people on the CL forum represent a small segment of ES owners that like to congregate and complain so their troubles are not representative of all ES350s and should be taken with a grain of salt? Absolutely not.

LexFather

Yes there are issues but they are the minority of owners. Don't let 3 or 4 people constantly posting sway you into thinking the ES 350 is just god awful.

The ES nor GS, heck the LS are not perfect but still the HIGHEST RATED QUALITY CARS in CLASS!

Honestly, I would wait for the 2008 ES to work out the bugs. As fof the GS, the GS is great.

LexFather

Sorry but there is a reason the GS starts at $45,000 and the ES ENDS at $45,000 (and starts at 32k). The GS is better built, sorry. It always has been and always will be. The LS will be better built than the GS. Just the way of business.

Of course all 3 cars are some of the best built in the world, however as the price goes up, so does the quality. All 3 are tops in class in quality.

2thfixr

I have one of each and I don't see $13k worth of differnce in build quality. I see more details and features but build quality? What are we talking about here, more welds, better plastic, stronger steel? The only place where I see a difference in build quality is underneath the car. The ES is bare metal with body colored undercoating material and the GS has plastic panels covering the undercoating.

Macklin

Oh how true.

e-man

I believe it's more than 3 or 4 people Sick. And, it's not just that people are reporting problems. They are reporting the EXACT SAME problems. And, it's not just that they are reporting the exact same problems, but they are also reporting inadequate dealer response/service in relation to the problem.

I call a spade a spade, and if it were just a few whiney complainers who had nothing better to do with their time than bash the car, that would be one thing. But clearly that's not the case. These people have spent $40k on a car and, more importantly, the Lexus name, and expect and deserve more.

On a related note, the father of a close friend of mine bought an ES350 a few weeks ago. My friend called me last night because his dad asked him to ask me a question about the car (he knows I'm a car guy and a Lexus fanatic). It seems like the transmission is "skipping," as he described it, and he wanted to know if I had any suggestions. He's in his late 60s, not computer-literate and wouldn't know a forum if it jumped up and bit him in the butt. Think about all the ES350 owners are out there (like my friend's dad) who don't use a computer, and even if they do, don't visit Internet forums. You're kidding yourself if you think that the problem is limited to "3 or 4 people constantly posting". The problems are much more widespread, but just not reported here.

e

ES350Bob

omr...

It used to be thought that the world was flat, only a handful of "complainers" claimed it was actually round or spherical, and my oh my how those who insisted it was flat had hissy fits and worse.

Now, imagine if they had internet back then.

ES350Bob

If the above were true generally of forums why are the other forums like IS and GS absent the content of this ES350 forum, where is the concentration of people venting?

There would be at least twice or three times the number of complaint posts on those forums if what forums were all about were "concentrations of people venting and discussing unusual issues...."

By numbers of active members we are far less in numbers here, they are triple and quadruple and more even than our numbers, yet look at Celibon's poll of issues and our own ES350 owner members reporting issues.

Something is up with claims of just what type of person visits an auto forum or else you'd see triple or quadruple the venting going on over there on those forums that you see here.

As to sensitive hearing as a reason for complaints....member after member has posted that service acknowledges sounds but either claims they are timing chain or fuel injector for engine and rename it buffeting for the wind noise.

Point being they hear these noises people are hearing in the cabin of the vehicle in order to offer up some explanation for their presence to begin with. Turning up a radio to drown out the sound or in order to ignore the sound is not what a radio in a vehicle is for.

twister

1Sicklex, with all my due respect, this is a very inaccurate comment. I'm the only person out of my "dealership" that is posting in here. I know for a fact our dealership already did more than half-a-dozen of buybacks and dozens of tranny replacements of ES350. This is just one dealership, OK? On top of that, there are hundreds of older folks with ES350 in our area who have no idea what flare is even if it hit them in a face. Please don't take it as a personal attack, I know its your job as a moderator to keep the forum in order and to keep the Lexus reputation "clean". But, you do not own ES350 and you base your comments on previous experience with older ES models and their reliability. I'm very confident to say that ES350 will go down as a dark spot in Lexus history.

ES350Bob

Where your hands shaking when you typed that sage advice?