amf1932

Simply put: Because you'll void your warranty!!!

terryes

This poll is amazing, simply amazing !!

IMHO there is no disconnect, lag or hesitation between the transmission and engine in the ES350. These anomolies are directly attributable to the drivers. Which normally translates into "Garbage in/Garbage out".

Try this:

1. Warm up your ES350 and take it to 50mph and keep it there, your tach should read about 1500-1700 rpms.

2. Move your gearshift LEFT into the "S" mode, while keeping your foot on the accelerator.

3. Your tranny will automatically shift into either 3rd or 4th gear, depending on how well you trained your ECT-I. At the same time your engine will increase 1500 rpms, and your tach should now be reading approximately 3000rpms. You are still doing 50mph, and when you do press down on the accelerator, you will get instant power ---- no lag, no hesitation.

The design and engineering of this tranny/engine combo is nothing short of brilliant. It's one of the primary reasons I purchased the ES350, for instant real power and fuel economy. No other car on the market performs this well, with the possible exception of the LS460.

Therefore the poll on this thread leads me to severl conclusions, 2 of which are:

1. The majority of respondents to this poll (70 Percent??) are not taking advantage of all the ES350 capabilities. And,

2. I am surprised with the small number of ES350s offered on EBAY with busted up trannys !!!

ES350Bob

Terry,

While it is not high on my priority list as an issue as my slipping transmission is, there are many who do not like the hesitation and it has nothing to do with driver putting garbage in and getting garbage out.

The number of federal reports on this hesitation is a good indicator this is not some driver defect and as well the one attempt at reflash on Camry etc., to address this.

As to trans on e-bay, the majority you see advertised there are not Lexus dealers doing it from what I have seen but third part traditional used car lots. I was told by my dealer they wholesale these cars at the auto auction and that is where these traditional used car places get them from to sell them. And for good reason, it would look really BAD for a Lexus dealer to advertise Lexus transmission defects and I would think Lexus would FORBID that of their dealers.

garsarno

Maybe Lexus will forbid them from taking a replaced transmission ES350 in trade. What will they do with it then? Send it to the auction immediately, which means that the trade in allowance they give you will be?

willard

I have little doubt that FE does improve with the advent of most manufacturers having adopted the new transaxle shift pattern/technique, upshifting upon full lift-throttle events, late in the last century.

But 2 MPG? Or enough to justify all of the horribly adverse publicity?

NOT...!!

For those of you having long experience with manual transmissions think about how useful a clutch pedal would/might be when driving a FWD vehicle with an automatic transaxle on a slippery roadbed. Or in a more severe roadbed condition even a RWD vehicle.

That's all, sum and total, of what the new transaxle shift pattern/schedule adopted late in the last century, is about, providing drivers of automatic equipped vehicles with a "virtual clutch". For about a decade or so now the AAA has been recommending that owners of vehicles with automatic transmissions/transaxles practice quickly slipping them into neutral in preparation for the day that that action might be REQUIRED.

I can remember years ago learning to lightly apply the rear implemented e-brake of automatic transmission equipped cars to maintain or regain directional control of my car on a low traction surface, especially downhill. Since the front brakes provide ~80% of any braking HP and 100% of the Stearing control it was inadviseable to use the brakes in those circumstance prior to having ABS.

Now it has come to pass that most manufacturers have realized that engine compression braking, most especially on FWD or front biased AWD, can too easily result in loss of control should the roadbed be especially slippery. Apparently engine braking can even interfere with the operational aspects of ABS.

On a slippery surface your anti-locking brake system will operate to keep those wheels rolling, FRONT especially, even ever so slightly, all the way down to coming to a complete stop. Throw in a smidgen of engine braking and your ABS will become inoperable at some point as you slow or stop on that slippery surface.

Ford has just been awarded a US patent for two hybrid vehicle techniques that address this aspect of wintertime driving. I suspect these techniques are fully implemented on the Escape and Mariner hybrid vehicles. Both of these, of necessaty (regenerative braking is not as nearly effective at the rear) FWD or front torque biased AWD.

Ford has also just announced that the new Edge will use a variable displacement ATF oil pump. So, why is THAT important..?

Because the base problem, the VERY BASE problem, is that the pumping capacity of most ATF oil pumps, with the engine idling, is not sufficiently high enough to support two sequential gear changes, an upshift upon FULL lift-throttle followed almost immediately by a requirement to downshift due to a quick re-application of the gas pedal, a quick acceleration requirment.

Most ATF oil pumps are of the gear type wherein sizing, volume/flow, is an extremely important design consideration because as engine RPM climbs these pumps will pump higher and higher volumes of fluid, not only wasting a LOT of energy that cannot be put to usefull effort, but HEATING the fluid in the process.

Think about your power stearing pump, provided you still have one. It must work its hardest, maximum pressure/flow, when the car is virtually stopped with the engine at idle. How much could FE be improved if you had a variable displacement power stearing pump wherein the pumping volume could reduced to zero when no assist effort was needed, ~95% of the time.

Either BMW or MB, I don't remember which, has just adopted a variable displacement engine lubricating oil pump for the very same reasons, improved FE due to less energy being wasted and lubricating oil needlessly HEATED.

This whole episode started, seemingly, at least for reaching public exposure, with the premature transaxle failures of the '99 ('00??) Lexus RX300's. I owned a 2000 AWD RX300 but traded up to the 2001 AWD RX300 primarily to get HID and VSC/Trac, "virtual" center and rear LSDs.

I don't now remember if I noticed the early symptoms of the new shift pattern in the '00, but most certainly did in the '01. What I noticed was that just before coming to a full stop while braking lightly the RX would "surge" forward as if the brakes had been slightly released or someone had bumped me lightly from behind. The other symptom occured at higher road speeds, ~35-45 MPH. During coastdown, no braking, it would sometimes feel as if the RX "surged" forward.

This puzzled me so I reseached the Lexus shop/repair manuals and to my surprise I discovered that, indeed, the RX transaxle's shift pattern caused it to upshift to a higher gear ratio in both of these instances.

Frankly I wrote it off to FE improvement technique since at the time there was so much "public" resistance to my thinking, stating, that it was a safety measure, alleviating engine braking which might otherwise result on loss of directional control should the roadbed be sliipery enough.

But then the 2004 RX330 came along with DBW, e-throttle, and owners started complaining of 1-2 second engine hesitation, delays.

So, bare with me for a moment.

The upshifting technique was adopted for the early, initial, RX300 models. But the ATF oil pump could not supply enough pressure/flow to adequately support that quick sequential downshift. So those transaxles began to fail due to the engine torque rising as soon as the throttle was opened but with the downshift clutches be fully and firmly seated.

I have little doubt that my 2001 AWD RX300 has a larger, higher volume, ATF oil pump in order to overcome the problems inherent in the earlier RX300s.

But.

At 40,000 miles the ATF in my RX300 was looking dirty and smelled burned. I was told by the dealer that I should drain and flush my ATF every 15,000 miles. But what would one expect a dealer to say..?

So I followed up with Lexus corporate who basically informed me that the dealer was correct, the ATF drain and flush, service schedule, had been revised from infinitely, the life of the vehicle, to 15,000 miles.

Two things that may be important, however obliquely. My 2001 AWD RX300 came with the trailer towing package which includes an auxilary ATF oil cooler. Today I'm not sure that ANY 2001 RX300 was shipped absent the towing package and thereby the ATF cooler. Additionally my '01 has a diagnostic indication on the instrument panel if the ATF becomes overheated. Apparently this indication is only on the AWD models.

I once suspected that the VC, viscous clutch/coupling, in the nearby PTO of my RX might be the source of extra heating of the ATF within the diff'l case. I checked the condition of the gear oil in the PTO but it appeared to be pristine.

In any case the VC was dropped from the RX330 series only to reappear in the RX350.

So, the higher volume ATF oil pump adopted for my '01 AWD RX300 didn't exactly work out.

So DBW, e-throttle, was adopted for the RX330 series so as to "protect the drive train". DBW was used to delay the onset of engine torque until the downshift could be completed. So the higher volume oil pump was no longer needed.

By the way the TSB that most adequately addresses these DBW issues was first issued in the spring of 1993 for the 2002 Camry which apparently adopted DBW much earlier than the RX did.

My solution....

Extend the "SNOW" mode functionality.

Revise the transaxle shift pattern/techique such that it no longer upshifts upon lift-throttle events. Go back to the old well-proven way. Instead have the DBW firmware revised such that it will alleviate the safety problems associated with engine braking by rev-matching the engine speed to the current roadspeed depending on the current gear ratio. And only "rev-match" if it is raining, the OAT is near or below freezing, or the driver has manually activated "snow" mode.

That leaves us with only the problem of engine braking's potential for interfering with ABS but that could probably be overcome, mostly, by only allowing ABS activation if the VSC sensors signal a need, the vehicle is not following the direction desired.

dunnojack

so S mode overrides the computer?
S mode set at "6" should produce the same behavior as in D shouldn't it?

terryes

The poll on this thread is labelled as "INSTANT THROTTLE RESPONSE". Using the "S" mode provides that instant response.

Nother overides the computer(s), unless you pull the main battery or reprogram them.

"S" mode at "6" and Automatic as in "D" are two seperate and distinct animals.

Have you tried using the "S" mode in different scenerious, to see how it performs for you?

By the way, I believe the lag/hesitation issue to be a major safety concern. Evern more of a concern than the other problems raised on this forum. While I really sympathize with the problems related to tranny flares, wind noise, etc., the lag/hesitation issue affects EVERYONE DRIVING around it, and not just one vehicle.

willard

No, "S" mode only allows YOU to over-ride the computer.

S mode simply imposes on the driver the responsiblity for determining what gear ratio to be in and when. With the exception, of course, that it will not downshift on your "command" if the result would be a "near" red-lining of the engine.

What "S" mode does allow you to do, provided the roadbed is of high enough traction that you can do this safely, is downshift the transaxle before coming to a complete stop, in case, in preparation for a quick getaway acceleration should you need to do so.

The same thing applies to the need to "hesitate" and then accelerate quickly to merge into that upcoming opening in traffic. In "S" mode you can hold the transaxle in the lower gear that you feel you will need for quick acceleration once you have the opening in traffic.

Obviously, absent a clutch, you wouldn't use either of these procedures on an icy roadbed, most especially in a FWD or front torque biased AWD vehicle.

In rain or on a low traction roadbed it would be my advice to NEVER use the "S" mode for downshifting, again, especially in a FWD vehicle. And if not for downshifting then not at all of course.

And IMMHO any system that "learns" individual driver styles, habits, technique, etc, and doesn't immediately forget them on the next engine restart, has the potential for being extremely disconcerting to that "next" driver. Your wife, maybe.

dunnojack

yes, I have played with S mode just for fun, shifting sequentially from 1-6. It lets me rev higher. But since I wasn't proficient at it, and shift response was delayed by 3 seconds after upshifting, I didn't want to play with it any further for fear of messing up the engine.

when i leave it in S-5, I really don't notice much of a difference.

My question is- do people get the flare when driving in S mode?

osokuko

Exactly what I said a month ago in a thread. The “S” mode performs much better than regular old drive. I use the “S” mode set to 6 every time I get on the freeway now. When you need the power you got it and the trans will down shift once and down one more gear for full power.

dunnojack

so, aggressive driving in S mode won't mess up the computer "learning process"?
say, you drive like a granny everyday. One day you hit the S mode and drive like a maniac.
Will granny-mode still be there when you shift out of S mode?

terryes

From your post, it appears you haven't driven cars with a manual transmission.

If you let us know what your speedometer and tachometer readings were at specific shift points while in "S", we could then tell you why you are experiencing shift response delays of 3 seconds !!!

My question to you is, did you try the 50mph shift from "D" to "S" as I described? Were your results the same or different from mine ??

FYI, I have routinely been using the "S" mode for 8500 miles, with no adverse effects.

ES350Bob

The explanation given of lower mpg or live with it whether viewed as dangerous or just annoying to me makes no sense at all when you consider that the trans scrolls down spiking the RPM as it does which is a form of engine braking and this is when the transmission is in regular mode. Remember the threads on here about that happening and it was assumed this is normal for the RPM spikes to happen when you are coasting or just lightly add brake? You at times end up adding gas to speed up again-slightly where you otherwise would not need to add as much as a result of the downshift scrolling.

To me, something is just not adding up as to mpg savings explanation for a hesitation that should be corrected.

Also other manufacturers manage to get good mpg and do not have this hesitation at all, 07 G35 is one example.

terryes

After discussing your post with my neighbor, another happy ES350 owner, neither one of us understands what you are trying to say.

What I said earlier was "if you are moving at 50mph in "D" drive on your Interstate-4 and want to pass a truck, you shift out of "D" (artificial intelligence mode) and into "S" mode, which places you in the proper gear for passing the truck". Once you pass the truck, you can shift back to "D" and motor on. You just used a little extra gas to pass the truck, with only two flicks of the gearshift lever.

The big question is, do you really understand how the transmission works on the ES350?

Speaking of the Infiniti, my first one was the I-35 (lousy luxury tax), then I moved up to the I-30, then the Q-45 and now I have the M-45. So, I'm kind of surprised that your speaking so highly of the G-35, is this from owning one?

willard

There are lots of drivers around these days who have no experience with manual transmssions, many of them also unfamiliar with RWD or rear torque biased AWD vehicle handling dynamics and advantages.

On the other hand I have lots of experience with manual transmissions but I continually forget to pay attention to the shift points when driving one of these in "S" mode. I usually end up leaving it in "auto" mode.