Dealership refuses to fix my car
03-09-07, 06:43 AM
#61
Lexus Champion
The sentiment he expressed is good and I otherwise agree as well. It is very difficult to justify spending 7,000 or 10,000 to trade out of a car as a result of a manufacturer refusing to acknowledge a defect or repair them.
Then there is the surprise of these defects lowering the trade offer when the car's service history is reviewed before an offer of trade value is made. You can lose another 2,000 dollars or more when that happens. All these normal characteristics or cannot duplicate are all of a sudden used against your vehicle and are then viewed as negatives on the car by the dealer at trade value time.
Dunno needs to force them to repair everything and even then that service history will be viewed as a negative at trade time, but certainly something that shows could not duplicate, meaning un-resolved and still a defect the car has will be an easy means to devalue the trade lower than average trade $$$$.
Then there is the surprise of these defects lowering the trade offer when the car's service history is reviewed before an offer of trade value is made. You can lose another 2,000 dollars or more when that happens. All these normal characteristics or cannot duplicate are all of a sudden used against your vehicle and are then viewed as negatives on the car by the dealer at trade value time.
Dunno needs to force them to repair everything and even then that service history will be viewed as a negative at trade time, but certainly something that shows could not duplicate, meaning un-resolved and still a defect the car has will be an easy means to devalue the trade lower than average trade $$$$.
03-09-07, 08:25 AM
#62
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Anyway, here's the condition I got my car back in. I recorded this tonight. It started rattling as soon as I drove off the car lot..... and they say they can't duplicate it... pfttt 
Unbelievable.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...60673284837966
My car sounds like it is going to fall apart. During this recording, the car was driven on paved road, with only one medium bump.
It doesn't sound as bad as the other video in my sig, but it's the same defect.
Unbelievable.http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...60673284837966
My car sounds like it is going to fall apart. During this recording, the car was driven on paved road, with only one medium bump.
It doesn't sound as bad as the other video in my sig, but it's the same defect.
Can you tell us what you are doing with your arm/hand in the top right of the video? btW, did they remove the rear windsheild clips?
Thanks
03-09-07, 10:19 AM
#63
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
03-09-07, 11:07 AM
#64
In the meantime, driving a 4/06 build ES loaner....Amber (this one is for you Alan!!!)
03-09-07, 11:17 AM
#65
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
agreed. then they can't lie and play dumb.
03-09-07, 11:24 AM
#66
Yes, was hard to duplicate them at their loudest for the tech, but he jumped in the back seat and said he heard enough. I also printed the TSIB and showed it to him. But, yes, when it is very cold out it seems to be worse.
03-09-07, 11:27 AM
#67
By the way, a great example of the rattle is to take your finger and tap your watch face with your finger nail tip. I did that for the tech also, it sounds almost the same. (at least with my watch).
03-09-07, 05:01 PM
#68
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Trust me--I've done the tech ride-along song-and-dance; when I brought my car in for the rear clunk issue, the tech heard it plain as day...but refused to look into the matter any further after discovering that at least two other cars exhibited the same kind of clunk. You know--the "gee if another car does the same thing, then it must be normal" lazy-a** kind of logical reasoning...
03-09-07, 05:34 PM
#69
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It's a great policy if, only after detecting the existence of the issue themselves, they acknowledge that the issue is not normal and should/needs to be corrected. In this particular case, it's great to see that they will do something about it; OTOH, there have been more than a few instances where they will acknowledge that the issue exists, but won't act upon it because of their belief that said issue isn't a "problem"--either because they have no record of it being a problem in other similar vehicles, or because said "problem" occurs on other vehicles...therefore it isn't considered out of the ordinary (they don't use the word "normal" but they might as well call it that).
Trust me--I've done the tech ride-along song-and-dance; when I brought my car in for the rear clunk issue, the tech heard it plain as day...but refused to look into the matter any further after discovering that at least two other cars exhibited the same kind of clunk. You know--the "gee if another car does the same thing, then it must be normal" lazy-a** kind of logical reasoning...
Trust me--I've done the tech ride-along song-and-dance; when I brought my car in for the rear clunk issue, the tech heard it plain as day...but refused to look into the matter any further after discovering that at least two other cars exhibited the same kind of clunk. You know--the "gee if another car does the same thing, then it must be normal" lazy-a** kind of logical reasoning...
Next, I have to side with them a little bit... Think about it in a simplier context. You bring the car in and say the door makes a "clunk" sound when closed... They close the doors of a couple other cars and they too make the same "clunk." Should they really spend time fixing your car?
03-09-07, 05:38 PM
#70
It's a great policy if, only after detecting the existence of the issue themselves, they acknowledge that the issue is not normal and should/needs to be corrected. In this particular case, it's great to see that they will do something about it; OTOH, there have been more than a few instances where they will acknowledge that the issue exists, but won't act upon it because of their belief that said issue isn't a "problem"--either because they have no record of it being a problem in other similar vehicles, or because said "problem" occurs on other vehicles...therefore it isn't considered out of the ordinary (they don't use the word "normal" but they might as well call it that).
Trust me--I've done the tech ride-along song-and-dance; when I brought my car in for the rear clunk issue, the tech heard it plain as day...but refused to look into the matter any further after discovering that at least two other cars exhibited the same kind of clunk. You know--the "gee if another car does the same thing, then it must be normal" lazy-a** kind of logical reasoning...
Trust me--I've done the tech ride-along song-and-dance; when I brought my car in for the rear clunk issue, the tech heard it plain as day...but refused to look into the matter any further after discovering that at least two other cars exhibited the same kind of clunk. You know--the "gee if another car does the same thing, then it must be normal" lazy-a** kind of logical reasoning...
Speaking of cold engine knock, my 4/06 build loaner has it too. Sounds exactly like my own car. The loaner also had some kind of rough shift this afternoon from 3rd to 4th. It happened once. Wouldn't say it was a flare, but was not perfect either. However, the car is rattle free and rides quieter than my own car. Will see if the tranny will flare up in the morning.
03-10-07, 02:27 AM
#71
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Here's an interesting article about the "Lemon Gauntlet", which is exactly what I'm going through right now:
http://www.normantaylor.com/lemon_gauntlet.html
This is too funny!!! It's almost like this article is about me. 
I already knew that Corporate was making the dealership do the dirty work.
I love this game. It's tiring, but a win will be sweet.
http://www.normantaylor.com/lemon_gauntlet.html
The Big Picture
Let’s look at how this works. It starts at the top, not at the dealership. It involves the dealership but it does not start there, no more than the troubles at Enron began with a rate specialist on the trading floor selling a power contract. Here’s a possibility. At a corporate shareholder meeting it is stated that things aren’t looking good for the stock. The CEO is told to do something about it. He or she is told to cut costs. One of the first things that is always cut is training. Also that budget that allows dealerships to get reimbursed for repeat warranty repairs is going to get cut. This creates a tremendous lack of incentive on the part of the dealership to do the job right. This descends the corporate ladder to District Service Managers issuing orders about the budget to buyback Lemons. The 800 lines at the manufacturer are trained to smoothly defer complaining customers back to dealerships instead of actually evaluating the reported defects. Remember, “If you can’t fix their car, fix their head.” It isn’t Corporations; It’s the People Running Them
Entering the Gauntlet
The Gauntlet begins when you arrive the second time for a repair of the same defect. The threat of this being a potential Lemon sets off alarms with those trained at the dealership level. “Oh, oh,” they say, “If we can’t actually repair it, we better employ every trick we know to make this person give up and go away.” It is incredibly cynical, even cruel because it undermines the owner’s safety, and peace of mind. To make someone give up you have to remove hope. Think about that! Remove hope. You have to drive the owner from being happy and proud of having a new car into apathy and despair that anything can ever be done about it. It is hard to imagine this but it most certainly a fact.
What You are Told
If you are a woman this might sound familiar: “That’s just the way they run honey.” It is patronizing, chauvinistic crap. These days fewer and fewer people, men and women, really understand how their car runs or is made. The cars are just too complex. Here’s another; “We couldn’t duplicate the problem.” You drive out of the shop and it happens before you get to the first stop sign. Self doubt creeps in. You aren’t sure you know what you know. How about this? “It’s running according to manufacturer’s specifications, it meets industry standards.” Flim flam, absolutely! When your car stalls periodically and won’t start this is not according to some unknown industry standard. And there’s this old stand by. “Just bring it back, we’ll fix it.” Do they fix it? No. They may find something that seems related to the problem, but it does not cure the problem. This one is particularly nasty. “Are you sure you properly know how to drive the vehicle?” Your first thought might be to punch the guy in the mouth, but you are still civilized and don’t do that. The issue wasn’t raised accidentally. It could become a legal issue when a claim is being denied. As you will see in the lemon stories, there is a situation where a Manufacturer’s Engineering Technical Specialist suggests that test show that the owner didn’t tighten the gas cap properly and that this is the cause of the problem. It is flim-flam of course. But the effect is to continually throw doubt on the issue. It is even possible that you will be met with antagonism. “Oh, you again!” As if somehow all this trouble is your fault. Enough of this for the moment: It’s pretty darn depressing.
Other Diversions
This one is very common. The Service Writer at the dealership writes down the problem not as you described it, but in a way that is ambiguous or in such away that it seems to be a different line of repairs. The purpose of this is to allow the dealership to state that they weren’t given a reasonable opportunity to repair the vehicle. This is one of the ways they avoid a Lemon Law suit. The dealership is going to try every way to discourage the customer from coming back so as to avoid 4 or more repairs for the same defect.
Let’s look at how this works. It starts at the top, not at the dealership. It involves the dealership but it does not start there, no more than the troubles at Enron began with a rate specialist on the trading floor selling a power contract. Here’s a possibility. At a corporate shareholder meeting it is stated that things aren’t looking good for the stock. The CEO is told to do something about it. He or she is told to cut costs. One of the first things that is always cut is training. Also that budget that allows dealerships to get reimbursed for repeat warranty repairs is going to get cut. This creates a tremendous lack of incentive on the part of the dealership to do the job right. This descends the corporate ladder to District Service Managers issuing orders about the budget to buyback Lemons. The 800 lines at the manufacturer are trained to smoothly defer complaining customers back to dealerships instead of actually evaluating the reported defects. Remember, “If you can’t fix their car, fix their head.” It isn’t Corporations; It’s the People Running Them
Entering the Gauntlet
The Gauntlet begins when you arrive the second time for a repair of the same defect. The threat of this being a potential Lemon sets off alarms with those trained at the dealership level. “Oh, oh,” they say, “If we can’t actually repair it, we better employ every trick we know to make this person give up and go away.” It is incredibly cynical, even cruel because it undermines the owner’s safety, and peace of mind. To make someone give up you have to remove hope. Think about that! Remove hope. You have to drive the owner from being happy and proud of having a new car into apathy and despair that anything can ever be done about it. It is hard to imagine this but it most certainly a fact.
What You are Told
If you are a woman this might sound familiar: “That’s just the way they run honey.” It is patronizing, chauvinistic crap. These days fewer and fewer people, men and women, really understand how their car runs or is made. The cars are just too complex. Here’s another; “We couldn’t duplicate the problem.” You drive out of the shop and it happens before you get to the first stop sign. Self doubt creeps in. You aren’t sure you know what you know. How about this? “It’s running according to manufacturer’s specifications, it meets industry standards.” Flim flam, absolutely! When your car stalls periodically and won’t start this is not according to some unknown industry standard. And there’s this old stand by. “Just bring it back, we’ll fix it.” Do they fix it? No. They may find something that seems related to the problem, but it does not cure the problem. This one is particularly nasty. “Are you sure you properly know how to drive the vehicle?” Your first thought might be to punch the guy in the mouth, but you are still civilized and don’t do that. The issue wasn’t raised accidentally. It could become a legal issue when a claim is being denied. As you will see in the lemon stories, there is a situation where a Manufacturer’s Engineering Technical Specialist suggests that test show that the owner didn’t tighten the gas cap properly and that this is the cause of the problem. It is flim-flam of course. But the effect is to continually throw doubt on the issue. It is even possible that you will be met with antagonism. “Oh, you again!” As if somehow all this trouble is your fault. Enough of this for the moment: It’s pretty darn depressing.
Other Diversions
This one is very common. The Service Writer at the dealership writes down the problem not as you described it, but in a way that is ambiguous or in such away that it seems to be a different line of repairs. The purpose of this is to allow the dealership to state that they weren’t given a reasonable opportunity to repair the vehicle. This is one of the ways they avoid a Lemon Law suit. The dealership is going to try every way to discourage the customer from coming back so as to avoid 4 or more repairs for the same defect.
I already knew that Corporate was making the dealership do the dirty work.
I love this game. It's tiring, but a win will be sweet.
Last edited by dunnojack; 03-10-07 at 02:49 AM.
03-10-07, 05:06 AM
#72
Lexus Champion
Here's an interesting article about the "Lemon Gauntlet", which is exactly what I'm going through right now:
http://www.normantaylor.com/lemon_gauntlet.html
This is too funny!!! It's almost like this article is about me.
I already knew that Corporate was making the dealership do the dirty work.
I love this game. It's tiring, but a win will be sweet.
http://www.normantaylor.com/lemon_gauntlet.html
This is too funny!!! It's almost like this article is about me.
I already knew that Corporate was making the dealership do the dirty work.
I love this game. It's tiring, but a win will be sweet.
Why right here in this thread
You have a fight on your hands that is a certainty and when finished you will be just as experienced as the author of the article.
"They will use every means to make you go away or to confuse you and have you believe defects are normal" <---quote from a 2nd opinion on my former car as a warning to me offered by an automotive engineer who tagged along with the shop owner i hired to review my former car. I didn't believe it would be pulled on me by Lexus regarding my former car but weeks later it was and WORSE.
The advance warning was only slightly helpful, took some of the shock at the deviousness down a notch compared to what it might have been without some advance warning this crap goes on.
Everything I was warned about came true: "If they truly have never seen this, they will ****** your car away from you, send it back to Japan to take apart and identify the cause and replace your car with a new one in the meantime and send you on your way. I think they know all about it and you will see they knew all about it when they do not take your car to analyze it and will excuse it away instead"
dunno...your car sitting that number of days at that dealership approached number of days for Lemon Law, OR, it is very expensive to fix, cost and buyback budget, two reasons you just read in that article that are behind odd actions taken with customers.
03-10-07, 06:09 AM
#73
I dunno, I think some of you guys are too sensitive. I have a few squeaks in my G35. Doesn't really bother me. Every so often there's a squeak in the GS. Again, doesn't bother me or the missus. I keep the music too loud to be concentrating on intermittent squeaks. Actually, they've decreased in frequency so i'm really not paying it any attention.
If you really must make an issue of it, here's my secret weapon. Walk through the showroom and tell every potential buyer that dealership doesn't stand behind their cars. I did it got immediate attention. They called the cops creating a big scene. So I left, got a big sign and stood at the entrance, on the sidewalk. The sign said these people are rip off artists, don't buy here. They called the cops again. This time the cop said they could not force me to leave the sidewalk and I had a right to peaceful demonstration. After several customers left, the management was all too eager to help.
If you really must make an issue of it, here's my secret weapon. Walk through the showroom and tell every potential buyer that dealership doesn't stand behind their cars. I did it got immediate attention. They called the cops creating a big scene. So I left, got a big sign and stood at the entrance, on the sidewalk. The sign said these people are rip off artists, don't buy here. They called the cops again. This time the cop said they could not force me to leave the sidewalk and I had a right to peaceful demonstration. After several customers left, the management was all too eager to help.
03-10-07, 06:49 AM
#75
I just started reading this forumn. I was in the same boat as you may of 06 with my wifes 2001 Rx 300. We were in Raligh car started acting up but Dealership in Raliegh was closed called Hendricks in Charlotte made a appointment. I took the car there when the lady service advisor took the car to the back she sid she felt the same thing .
# days later my service advisor called me and told me the tech couldn't find no problems I told him to talk to the lady advisor she felt the tranny slipping too but he said the Tech had too feel or hear it . I went to pick the car up and I rode with the Tech and i couldn't get it to do it so the Tech told me that service lights would flash if my tranny was messing up and whatnots. When I was going home I called and asked my boys who works on Imports he told me service lights don't light up if the tranny is slipping. So i called Lexus and told them the problem, just to have it documented. I started driving the car and wholla I figured out how to get car to do it. I made another apoointment with the Tech we rode together I got it to slip several times he drove it and did the same thing, so they put a new Tranny in it free of charge.
# days later my service advisor called me and told me the tech couldn't find no problems I told him to talk to the lady advisor she felt the tranny slipping too but he said the Tech had too feel or hear it . I went to pick the car up and I rode with the Tech and i couldn't get it to do it so the Tech told me that service lights would flash if my tranny was messing up and whatnots. When I was going home I called and asked my boys who works on Imports he told me service lights don't light up if the tranny is slipping. So i called Lexus and told them the problem, just to have it documented. I started driving the car and wholla I figured out how to get car to do it. I made another apoointment with the Tech we rode together I got it to slip several times he drove it and did the same thing, so they put a new Tranny in it free of charge.