psp

Well since you asked....

I have had the ES with the M-L for more than 3 years and just over 29K miles. I have the VaisTech interface. I do not play the system real loud either.

I think the sound is grade A-. I have heard better systems in cars but they cost a lot more money than the ES with the M-L. I think that the B&O in the big Audi sounds a bit better. I also think that the M-L in the LS460 sounds a bit better. Notice I said a bit. I have heard some after market set-ups with proper insulation, good amps, better front end units, and real good speakers where the resonances of the materials used in the car have been addressed and everything was tightened and damped properly that sounded better; not by an order of magnitude, but better. The cost of these systems surpassed half of what I paid for the entire car. (With tax and license I paid more for this car than my parents paid for their house in the hills of Encino in 1967.) Please know that these are not boom-boom systems like that guy who pulls up next to you playing hip hop sounds (thump-thump), rather high end systems engineered for high definition, minimal distortion, some semblance of imaging, and real musical enjoyment.

IMHO, iPod used in a standard format (as opposed to some kind of "Lossless" or other high sampling rate format) is not the end all in audio. Well recorded CD's sound very good in the M-L system in my car. SACD's transferred in Apple Lossless to my iPod sound great. I have not heard DVD audio as of yet. The DVD's that I have listened to (and watched, mostly live concert footage) are terrific. Once I start listening to music in the car that I like it sounds so good that I don't really feel an overwhelming need to look for better source material.

IMHO, played within it's limitations, actually limitations of the interior materials and build quality used in the ES by Lexus (face it, played loudly the interior surfaces rattle or will soon) the system is real good. It is designed to play at real world levels that you can listen to for long drives. It is not a blow your ears off system. In the morning on the way to work I listen to the news and will often not change the station on the way home. On a Friday after work I will remember that I can listen to music while stuck in traffic. I will put on music - iPod or Sirius - and I am reminded of why I got the car with the M-L system and am still satisfied after more than 3 years. The fact that the unit is from the factory and not some after market job is all the more gratifying. Better than any Bose or Infinity or JBL or harman/kardon system that I have heard.

Yes I know Harman International owns JBL, Infinity, Lexicon, Becker (Benz used Becker for the longest time) and harman/kardon, AND Mark Levinson too. See a pattern here?

bobsobi

When you say "low bitrate" CDs, are you referring to MP3s burned to CD? I think you're giving the CD format short shrift here. While commercial CDs mastered in the 80s pretty much all sounded bad, recently remastered material can be quite good.

CDs sound their best on my ML system when I enable the DSP. While the sound is largely all up front, it is a stereo signal, after all. Strangely, the 200 - 400 Hz peak I hear when playing 5.1 material is largely absent from CDs played with the DSP on, and the sound quality then comes very close to my old '99 ES's stock system.

I give the ML system a mediocre grade based on (1) its undistinguished (and inaccurate, in the case of surround FR) performance in light of the expectations borne of the ML marketing hype, and (2) its performance compared to the stock system in my '99 ES which didn't cost me anything extra.

garsarno

The ML system in our ES350 easily beats the JBL in our '07 Grand Cherokee and the Bose in our '07 Impala SS. I did hear the ML in a LS460 and thought it was better than the ES350 but maybe the size of the car helps the LS460.

bobsobi

Well, it should sound better! Although the slightly different cabin dimensions are likely not a big factor - the ES has 14 speakers & 300W, the LS has 19 speakers & 450W. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

Since it appears that Lexus has cut corners in recent years with the stock system, it's not unreasonable to suspect that the ML systems destined for lines other than their flagship may have suffered a similar fate. You can pretty safely assume that the LS gets the most attention as far as tuning treatment. Based on my listening experience, any ES tuning has been cursory at best.

garsarno

Would you rate the LS ML system the best among the big dogs like the MB S Series and the BMW 7 series?

tromly

After all the complaints on the ML system in the SC430, I would think the sound engineers would pay close attention to both the SC and LS models.

bobsobi

Hmm. Perhaps there haven't been enough dissatisfied ES MLers to turn the tide?

BillP

Just my opinion...I think one of the most effective enhancements is to add more sound deaden material in the car. I did the entire floor up the firewall as far as possible and all the doors....huge difference in the stock sound system. The sound cleaned up, bass is tighter, highs are crisper and imaging is better. If you're going to upgrade drivers in the doors its almost a waste of time if you don't at least deaden the doors. I used B-Quiet, but Dynamat is good stuff also. I don't know what qualifies as a audio expert but I've been running McIntosh and Marantz (old Marantz USA) tube amps for years, with custom speakers. Nothing I've ever heard in a car has matched my home setup so I've quit spending crazy money to get there.

As quiet as these cars are the additional material made a very nice reduction in noise, along with some of the mods people on this site figured out for wind noise issues.

savon

I would recommend that you buy a dvd-v of a live concert of an artist(s) or a band that you like the most, make sure it has dolby or dts 5.1 audio format. Usually, on the back of the box it says what audio format disc can be played (2.0 or 2.1 or 5.1). make sure you select 5.1 format when you are playing it.
I have listened to old ES stock system. It is a very good system but I dont think it is better than ML. When I bought my car I cared less about ML system. I wasnt listening to music that much. First couple of months, I listened only to CDs until one day I wanted to see how picture quality is when playing DVD, so I played one of live concert dvd-v I had just bought. I first listened to stereo format, then I switched to 5.1 format and suddenly I was shocked to what I was hearing. I am not a audio expert and most of the things I learned is from internet. IMO, CD sound quality is inferior to DVD recordings. From what I read, information stored on a CD is much less that what it can be stored on a DVD. So, you get a better sound from DVD. With CD you can play only 2 channels (stereo) with DVD you can play 2 or 5.1 surround format if it is recorded that way. Some car audio systems like MB or Acura will play CDs on simulated 5.1 format but it is not a true 5.1. I dont think ML system plays CDs in 5.1 format. It doesnt have dolby Prologic (which Acura has) or Lexicons Logic-7 (which MB has). Probably, lexus didnt want pay extra.
I bought my car 2 weeks after it hit the show rooms. Lexus has screwed a lot with building the new ES350 (i.e. transmission flares, dash rattles, etc). If I buy another lexus it will be for its ML system. Thats the one place that I think It shines (besides its soft and quiet ride). It is just my opinion.

codejd

Go listen to the Hyundai Genesis...not a great car (IMO) but I have never (EVER) heard anything (stock) so stunning in an automobile.

bobsobi

I guess I wasn't clear in my previous posts. I have a collection of DVD-As, as well as a number of DVDs with musical content in DD or DTS. One DD concert disc in particular demonstrates the FR peak I described -- there's a conga drum that resonates in the cabin every time it's struck, rendering the music almost unlistenable. On my 7.1 home system the disc sounds perfect.

The FR peak is present on all DD, DTS, and DVD-A sources regardless of whether it's 5.1 or 2.0. Since the comparison with my old ES was about accuracy, in this respect the ML system is inferior.

Another defect I haven't mentioned in this thread is the player doesn't decode properly. For example, my Steely Dan Gaucho DVD-A sounds like a rough-edit mix in 5.1 -- the horn section and back-up singers, when panned completely to the rear channels, simply don't show up! The 2.0 layer plays correctly. And yes, this (and all my DVD-As) play perfectly in my home.

So, this, along with the player refusing to read the surround layer on many discs, points to a problem with the head unit. The service manager and lead tech at my dealership both acknowledged the problem, but said they had to bring in a factory rep since they weren't sure how to proceed.

As far as CD SQ, there's no doubt that a 96kHz sampling rate will beat 44.1kHz, but most people will not notice a difference, unless they are in a controlled environment using good equipment (we're comparing stereo sound here). Witness the popularity of MP3s -- most people could care less about sonic fidelity, they want convenience and portability, apparently.

CDs, when properly mastered, can sound very good, especially compared to ones pressed when the technology was in its infancy. Since they play with relatively accurate frequency response, CDs played with the DSP on in my ML system have it all over the high-resolution discs because of that stupid hump in the FR.

savon

.

I have heard about this in a different thread from other people also. I have only 2 DVD-A which work ok. I have a DVD-V which I cant hear anytthing from back speakers when I play 5.1 format. But most of my DVD-V are fine. My Denon blue-ray player doesnt paly some of blure-ray movies either (go figure?). My guess is that there is a software problem with some of the players including ML in Lexus that they cant decode certain recordings.

bobsobi

I asked the dealership tech if there was a firmware update that could be applied. He said there was none.

The documentation carries the logos for the DVD formats, so they are supposed to be fully compliant with the specs.

bobsobi

Well, it's been over a month, with the dealership conferring with "people in California" and the "radio manufacturer". It culminated with this email from the service rep:

"Mark Levinson confirmed this is a combination of the particular DVD-A disc and the car system. They confirmed some discs were fine while others do not work due to the way the structure of the disc files are setup. Im sorry I cannot go any further with this . you can call lexus directly 1-800 255-3987"

So, while the dealership has been generally responsive, it's clear that they've washed their hands of it, based on corporate's position, which, in a nutshell, is "take a hike."

Is is just me, or does anyone else think this is unacceptable?

Is it that audio, even the ML treatment, is nothing more than an afterthought? Sure, the car runs fine, but a $1600 option is essentially defective and all they can say is too bad?

I am considering my next move -- since the brush-off came from upstairs, I'm not sure what good will come from calling the 800 number. Anyone have any advice?