Toyota/Lexus recalls 3.8 million cars
10-06-09, 11:12 PM
#31
Lead Lap
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This has been an ongoing problem with Camry floor mats for years. Toyota finally decided to bite the bullet and own up to it. It's a design defect that finally reached critical mass.
10-09-09, 08:25 PM
#32
Some cars (like a 2000 honda crv I just traded in for my LS) do not have the hooks for front floor mats. The OEM LS rubber mats I bought to replace the OEM carpeted ones also have the holes for the hooks and specifically say not to place the mat on top of another mat, OEM or not (at least on the DS). I had aftermarket mats in my crv, and they'd constantly ride up under the accelerator pedal, and I'd have to pull it back maybe each week. The mat hooks should be a requirement for all cars.
10-19-09, 03:08 AM
#34
Lexus Test Driver
I am presuming that you were unaware of the facts and that, otherwise, you wouldn't have been so glib with this comment.
Here are the facts from today's L.A. Times...
latimes.com
Despite CHP officer's vehicle safety training, he couldn't control runaway Lexus
The crash killed driver Mark Saylor, 45, and his family.
By Tony Perry
October 18, 2009
Reporting from San Diego
Mark Saylor, 45, was known as a stickler for detail in the California Highway Patrol, where he had served for years as a patrol officer and more recently as a vehicle safety inspector.
But his life was cut short when the Lexus ES 350 he was driving accelerated out of control, an incident that may be related to similar crashes involving improperly positioned floor mats in certain Toyota and Lexus vehicles.
Along with Saylor, three members of his family died in the horrific Aug. 28 crash. Saylor's wife, Cleofe Lastrella, 45; the couple's 13-year-old daughter, Mahala; and Cleofe's brother, Chris Lastrella, 38, perished when the car slammed into another vehicle and then careened into a dirt embankment in San Diego County.
The sudden loss of the entire family has left CHP officers deeply saddened.
"It was pretty unbelievable.," said Mike May, a CHP officer who counted Saylor as a dear friend. "He didn't just die, he was killed."
May remembers Saylor for his conservative politics, strong Christian faith and love of sports. Saylor played baseball for many years, until he was injured by a drunk driver while on duty four years ago. The injuries also led Saylor to transfer from CHP road duty to a position testing drivers and examining heavy vehicles.
Saylor, an Air Force veteran and the son of a St. Louis police officer, was an only child, but his wife came from a large Filipino American family and he liked the idea of family. Her brother Chris had moved into their Chula Vista home only a few months earlier, relocating from Northern California to attempt a career in television voice-overs.
Cleofe Lastrella, a UC Davis graduate, was a published researcher in the field of genetics. Their daughter, Mahala, played soccer, and Saylor would work early shifts so he could leave in time to take her and her teammates to games and practices.
It isn't known where the family was headed on the day of the accident. They had taken their own Lexus to a dealer for servicing and been given a loaner Lexus in its place. According to Toyota, the loaner had an all-weather floor mat for a different Lexus model installed, which may have jammed the gas pedal open.
A 50-second cellphone call was placed to 911 just before the crash, in which Chris Lastrella told a dispatcher that the accelerator was stuck and that the brakes weren't working.
Saylor "did everything he could to avoid crashing," said John Gomez, a San Diego attorney representing the parents of the couple. "He was trained in all the defensive driving tactics."
CHP Officer John Concepcion, a close friend of Saylor, said he believed that Saylor tried to forestall an accident by staying away from certain freeways and offramps. "He had the foresight to call 911 and tell them there was going to be a crash."
The ES 350 was traveling north of Highway 125 and as the car approached the end of the freeway at Mission Gorge Road, either Saylor or Chris Lastrella could be heard on the cellphone call saying, "pray, pray."
May said that those last words, whoever spoke them, were how Saylor lived his life.
"He was a smart guy," May said. "I used to tell him, dude, you should go on 'Jeopardy.' "
tony.perry@latimes.com
Copyright © 2009, The Los Angeles Times
Here are the facts from today's L.A. Times...
latimes.com
Despite CHP officer's vehicle safety training, he couldn't control runaway Lexus
The crash killed driver Mark Saylor, 45, and his family.
By Tony Perry
October 18, 2009
Reporting from San Diego
Mark Saylor, 45, was known as a stickler for detail in the California Highway Patrol, where he had served for years as a patrol officer and more recently as a vehicle safety inspector.
But his life was cut short when the Lexus ES 350 he was driving accelerated out of control, an incident that may be related to similar crashes involving improperly positioned floor mats in certain Toyota and Lexus vehicles.
Along with Saylor, three members of his family died in the horrific Aug. 28 crash. Saylor's wife, Cleofe Lastrella, 45; the couple's 13-year-old daughter, Mahala; and Cleofe's brother, Chris Lastrella, 38, perished when the car slammed into another vehicle and then careened into a dirt embankment in San Diego County.
The sudden loss of the entire family has left CHP officers deeply saddened.
"It was pretty unbelievable.," said Mike May, a CHP officer who counted Saylor as a dear friend. "He didn't just die, he was killed."
May remembers Saylor for his conservative politics, strong Christian faith and love of sports. Saylor played baseball for many years, until he was injured by a drunk driver while on duty four years ago. The injuries also led Saylor to transfer from CHP road duty to a position testing drivers and examining heavy vehicles.
Saylor, an Air Force veteran and the son of a St. Louis police officer, was an only child, but his wife came from a large Filipino American family and he liked the idea of family. Her brother Chris had moved into their Chula Vista home only a few months earlier, relocating from Northern California to attempt a career in television voice-overs.
Cleofe Lastrella, a UC Davis graduate, was a published researcher in the field of genetics. Their daughter, Mahala, played soccer, and Saylor would work early shifts so he could leave in time to take her and her teammates to games and practices.
It isn't known where the family was headed on the day of the accident. They had taken their own Lexus to a dealer for servicing and been given a loaner Lexus in its place. According to Toyota, the loaner had an all-weather floor mat for a different Lexus model installed, which may have jammed the gas pedal open.
A 50-second cellphone call was placed to 911 just before the crash, in which Chris Lastrella told a dispatcher that the accelerator was stuck and that the brakes weren't working.
Saylor "did everything he could to avoid crashing," said John Gomez, a San Diego attorney representing the parents of the couple. "He was trained in all the defensive driving tactics."
CHP Officer John Concepcion, a close friend of Saylor, said he believed that Saylor tried to forestall an accident by staying away from certain freeways and offramps. "He had the foresight to call 911 and tell them there was going to be a crash."
The ES 350 was traveling north of Highway 125 and as the car approached the end of the freeway at Mission Gorge Road, either Saylor or Chris Lastrella could be heard on the cellphone call saying, "pray, pray."
May said that those last words, whoever spoke them, were how Saylor lived his life.
"He was a smart guy," May said. "I used to tell him, dude, you should go on 'Jeopardy.' "
tony.perry@latimes.com
Copyright © 2009, The Los Angeles Times
10-19-09, 03:12 AM
#35
Lexus Test Driver
From today's (10/19/2009) L.A. Times...
latimes.com
Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats
A fatal accident in San Diego raises the question: Might a vehicle's complex electronic features make it hard for drivers to react quickly when accelerating out of control?
By Ralph Vartabedian and Ken Bensinger
October 18, 2009
The 2009 Lexus ES 350 shot through suburban San Diego like a runaway missile, weaving at 120 miles an hour through rush hour freeway traffic as flames flashed from under the car.
At the wheel, veteran California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor desperately tried to control the 272-horsepower engine that was roaring at full throttle as his wife, teenage daughter and brother-in-law were gripped by fear.
"We’re in trouble. . . . There’s no brakes," Saylor's brother-in-law Chris Lastrella told a police dispatcher over a cellphone. Moments later, frantic shrieks filled the car as it slammed into another vehicle and then careened into a dirt embankment, killing all four aboard.
The tragedy Aug. 28 was at least the fifth fatal crash in the U.S. over the last two years involving runaway Toyota and Lexus vehicles made by Toyota Motor Corp. It is also among hundreds of incidents of sudden acceleration involving the company's vehicles that have been reported to Toyota or the federal government, according to an examination of public records by The Times.
Toyota has blamed the incidents -- apart from those caused by driver error -- on its floor mats, asserting that if they are improperly installed they can jam open the accelerator pedal. A month after the Saylor crash, Toyota issued its biggest recall in company history, affecting 3.8 million vehicles in model years as far back as 2004. But auto safety experts believe there may be a bigger problem with Toyota vehicles than simply the floor mats.
The Saylor crash and others like it across the country, they say, point to a troubling possibility: that Toyota's ignition, transmission and braking systems may make it difficult for drivers to combat sudden or unintended accelerations and safely recover, regardless of their cause.
Toyota is not the only car company to be hit with reports of sudden acceleration, but the San Diego fatality, the massive recall that came in its wake and Toyota's position as the world's largest automaker have focused intense scrutiny on the company by federal safety regulators and others.
"This is Toyota's Firestone," said Sean Kane, president of Safety Research & Strategies, a Rehoboth, Mass., auto safety consulting firm. He was referring to the public relations disaster that hit Bridgestone/Firestone almost 10 years ago over defective tires that caused a series of fatal accidents.
"Right now," Kane said, "when you say sudden acceleration, Toyota is it."
In addition to Saylor and Lastrella, the San Diego crash killed Saylor's wife, Cleofe Lastrella, and their only child, 13-year-old daughter Mahala.
Signaling how seriously the company takes the incident, Toyota President Akio Toyoda made an apology this month while meeting with the Japanese news media.
"Customers bought our cars because they thought they were the safest," he said. "But now we have given them cause for grave concern. I can't begin to express my remorse."
One remedy being considered by Toyota implicitly acknowledges what critics have been saying for almost 10 years: that the company's highly computerized engine control system lacks a fail-safe mechanism that can quickly extinguish sudden acceleration events, whether they are caused by floor mats, driver errors or even unknown defects in the electronic control system, as alleged in some lawsuits.
Reports of sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles has resulted in nine federal inquiries and investigations since 2000, two of which determined that there were improperly positioned floor mats. Another found a loose part in Sienna minivans, and yet another probe remains open. The rest were dismissed with no findings of equipment problems.
In most Toyota vehicles, the floor mats are held in place by two clips, which can come loose. Toyota offers a standard carpeted floor mat and an optional rubber version. Both mats have a cutout around the accelerator pedal. The vehicle driven by Saylor had a rubber floor mat, but Toyota said it was for a different model of Lexus.
Since the San Diego crash, Toyota has urged all its customers to remove their floor mats as an interim fix. But longer term, Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said, the company is examining significant design changes.
One possible remedy is to redesign the accelerator pedal to make it harder to get caught by a floor mat, he said. Another potential fix, he said, involves reprogramming the engine's computer to automatically cut power when a driver brakes while the gas pedal is depressed.
Such fail-safes are needed, auto experts say, because sudden acceleration can cause drivers to panic, diminishing their ability to take swift action -- such as shutting off the engine or shifting into neutral.
If anybody should have known how to stop an out-of-control car, it was Saylor, who was trained in emergency and high-speed driving as a 19-year CHP veteran. But a close look at the Lexus ES 350 raises questions about whether the car's very design may have compromised Saylor's skills.
One obvious line of defense is to simply shut off the engine, a step that may not be intuitive on the ES 350. The car has a push-button start system, activated by the combination of a wireless electronic fob carried by the driver and a button on the dashboard.
But once the vehicle is moving, the engine will not shut off unless the button is held down for a full three seconds -- a period of time in which Saylor's car would have traveled 528 feet. A driver may push the button repeatedly, not knowing it requires a three-second hold.
"When you are dealing with an emergency, you can't wait three seconds for the car to respond at 120 miles an hour," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the nonprofit Center for Auto Safety.
The ES 350 Saylor was driving that day was a loaner provided to him by Bob Baker Lexus when he took his family's Lexus in for servicing. It's unclear whether Saylor's own car had the same feature or whether he was aware of the shutdown procedure. Bob Baker Lexus did not return calls.
That procedure is explained deep in the owners manual. In a text box labeled "! Caution," Toyota tells owners, "Do not touch the 'power' switch while driving." But under the warning it adds, "If you have to make an emergency stop, press and hold the 'power' switch for more than three seconds."
Lyons, the Toyota spokesman, said: "I think the text is valid. What I'd prefer it to say is to explain that you'll lose power assist [for] brakes and steering if you do so."
The shutdown procedure reflects a larger problem: As auto manufacturers adopt increasingly complex electronic features, it becomes more difficult to explain how they work, said Paul Green, a human factors expert at the University of Michigan's Transportation Research Institute. A study by the institute found that in some cases, owners manuals would have to run up to 1,000 pages to fully disclose everything.
"In the past, systems were pretty simple," Green said. "You put a key in the lock and turn it. Now we have a fob with functionality."
The other common defense tactic advised by experts is to simply shift a runaway vehicle into neutral. But the ES 350 is equipped with an automatic transmission that can mimic manual shifting, and its shift lever on the console has a series of gates and detents that allow a driver to select any of at least four forward gears.
The arrangement of those gear selections could make it difficult to shift from a forward gear directly into neutral in a panic situation, Toyota spokesman Lyons acknowledged.
"I think it's possible to get the shifter confused, but I can't be sure that's what happened" in San Diego, Lyons said. "You'd be surprised how many people around here [Toyota] don't know what the neutral position is for."
The most obvious impulse for any driver experiencing sudden acceleration is to apply the brakes. But when an engine goes to full throttle and is speeding at 120 mph, the brake might not stop the car.
The ES 350 and most other modern vehicles are equipped with power-assisted brakes, which operate by drawing vacuum power from the engine. But when an engine opens to full throttle, the vacuum drops, and after one or two pumps of the brake pedal the power assist feature disappears.
As a result, a driver would have to apply enormous pressure to the brake pedal to stop the car, and if the throttle was wide open might not be able to stop it at all, safety experts say.
"I don't think you can stop a car going 120 mph and an engine at full throttle without power assist," said Ditlow, the safety center director.
Indeed, a 2007 study by federal highway safety officials showed that braking distance and force on a Lexus ES 350 increased fivefold when the throttle was wide open. And evidence introduced in sudden acceleration trials suggests that it can take up to 225 pounds of pressure on a brake pedal to arrest a runaway vehicle, far more than most drivers can muster from a seated position, said Edgar "Hike" Heiskell, a Charleston, W.Va., attorney who is suing Toyota over a fatal acceleration accident in Flint, Mich.
Lyons acknowledged that the vacuum can be depleted when an engine throttle is wide open, leaving the drivers without power-assisted brakes.
"There's a [federal] standard where you have to be able to stop the car without power-assisted brakes, but obviously I don't think it includes situations where the throttle is wide open," he added.
Drivers in other crashes also found it difficult to rein in a runaway Toyota. Guadalupe Gomez of Redwood City said he was held hostage for 20 miles on a Bay Area freeway by a 2007Camry traveling more than 100 mph.
Gomez was unable to turn off the engine or shift into neutral and then burned out his brakes before slamming into another car and killing that driver, said attorney Louis Franecke, who represented that victim's family.
The San Diego crash is still under investigation by the San Diego County Sheriff's Department and the CHP; until the probe is complete, neither agency is commenting.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, meanwhile, says it has an open investigation into sudden acceleration events involving Toyota vehicles.
ralph.vartabedian@latimes.com
ken.bensinger@latimes.com
Times staff writer Tony Perry in San Diego contributed to this report.
Copyright © 2009, The Los Angeles Times
latimes.com
Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats
A fatal accident in San Diego raises the question: Might a vehicle's complex electronic features make it hard for drivers to react quickly when accelerating out of control?
By Ralph Vartabedian and Ken Bensinger
October 18, 2009
The 2009 Lexus ES 350 shot through suburban San Diego like a runaway missile, weaving at 120 miles an hour through rush hour freeway traffic as flames flashed from under the car.
At the wheel, veteran California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor desperately tried to control the 272-horsepower engine that was roaring at full throttle as his wife, teenage daughter and brother-in-law were gripped by fear.
"We’re in trouble. . . . There’s no brakes," Saylor's brother-in-law Chris Lastrella told a police dispatcher over a cellphone. Moments later, frantic shrieks filled the car as it slammed into another vehicle and then careened into a dirt embankment, killing all four aboard.
The tragedy Aug. 28 was at least the fifth fatal crash in the U.S. over the last two years involving runaway Toyota and Lexus vehicles made by Toyota Motor Corp. It is also among hundreds of incidents of sudden acceleration involving the company's vehicles that have been reported to Toyota or the federal government, according to an examination of public records by The Times.
Toyota has blamed the incidents -- apart from those caused by driver error -- on its floor mats, asserting that if they are improperly installed they can jam open the accelerator pedal. A month after the Saylor crash, Toyota issued its biggest recall in company history, affecting 3.8 million vehicles in model years as far back as 2004. But auto safety experts believe there may be a bigger problem with Toyota vehicles than simply the floor mats.
The Saylor crash and others like it across the country, they say, point to a troubling possibility: that Toyota's ignition, transmission and braking systems may make it difficult for drivers to combat sudden or unintended accelerations and safely recover, regardless of their cause.
Toyota is not the only car company to be hit with reports of sudden acceleration, but the San Diego fatality, the massive recall that came in its wake and Toyota's position as the world's largest automaker have focused intense scrutiny on the company by federal safety regulators and others.
"This is Toyota's Firestone," said Sean Kane, president of Safety Research & Strategies, a Rehoboth, Mass., auto safety consulting firm. He was referring to the public relations disaster that hit Bridgestone/Firestone almost 10 years ago over defective tires that caused a series of fatal accidents.
"Right now," Kane said, "when you say sudden acceleration, Toyota is it."
In addition to Saylor and Lastrella, the San Diego crash killed Saylor's wife, Cleofe Lastrella, and their only child, 13-year-old daughter Mahala.
Signaling how seriously the company takes the incident, Toyota President Akio Toyoda made an apology this month while meeting with the Japanese news media.
"Customers bought our cars because they thought they were the safest," he said. "But now we have given them cause for grave concern. I can't begin to express my remorse."
One remedy being considered by Toyota implicitly acknowledges what critics have been saying for almost 10 years: that the company's highly computerized engine control system lacks a fail-safe mechanism that can quickly extinguish sudden acceleration events, whether they are caused by floor mats, driver errors or even unknown defects in the electronic control system, as alleged in some lawsuits.
Reports of sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles has resulted in nine federal inquiries and investigations since 2000, two of which determined that there were improperly positioned floor mats. Another found a loose part in Sienna minivans, and yet another probe remains open. The rest were dismissed with no findings of equipment problems.
In most Toyota vehicles, the floor mats are held in place by two clips, which can come loose. Toyota offers a standard carpeted floor mat and an optional rubber version. Both mats have a cutout around the accelerator pedal. The vehicle driven by Saylor had a rubber floor mat, but Toyota said it was for a different model of Lexus.
Since the San Diego crash, Toyota has urged all its customers to remove their floor mats as an interim fix. But longer term, Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said, the company is examining significant design changes.
One possible remedy is to redesign the accelerator pedal to make it harder to get caught by a floor mat, he said. Another potential fix, he said, involves reprogramming the engine's computer to automatically cut power when a driver brakes while the gas pedal is depressed.
Such fail-safes are needed, auto experts say, because sudden acceleration can cause drivers to panic, diminishing their ability to take swift action -- such as shutting off the engine or shifting into neutral.
If anybody should have known how to stop an out-of-control car, it was Saylor, who was trained in emergency and high-speed driving as a 19-year CHP veteran. But a close look at the Lexus ES 350 raises questions about whether the car's very design may have compromised Saylor's skills.
One obvious line of defense is to simply shut off the engine, a step that may not be intuitive on the ES 350. The car has a push-button start system, activated by the combination of a wireless electronic fob carried by the driver and a button on the dashboard.
But once the vehicle is moving, the engine will not shut off unless the button is held down for a full three seconds -- a period of time in which Saylor's car would have traveled 528 feet. A driver may push the button repeatedly, not knowing it requires a three-second hold.
"When you are dealing with an emergency, you can't wait three seconds for the car to respond at 120 miles an hour," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the nonprofit Center for Auto Safety.
The ES 350 Saylor was driving that day was a loaner provided to him by Bob Baker Lexus when he took his family's Lexus in for servicing. It's unclear whether Saylor's own car had the same feature or whether he was aware of the shutdown procedure. Bob Baker Lexus did not return calls.
That procedure is explained deep in the owners manual. In a text box labeled "! Caution," Toyota tells owners, "Do not touch the 'power' switch while driving." But under the warning it adds, "If you have to make an emergency stop, press and hold the 'power' switch for more than three seconds."
Lyons, the Toyota spokesman, said: "I think the text is valid. What I'd prefer it to say is to explain that you'll lose power assist [for] brakes and steering if you do so."
The shutdown procedure reflects a larger problem: As auto manufacturers adopt increasingly complex electronic features, it becomes more difficult to explain how they work, said Paul Green, a human factors expert at the University of Michigan's Transportation Research Institute. A study by the institute found that in some cases, owners manuals would have to run up to 1,000 pages to fully disclose everything.
"In the past, systems were pretty simple," Green said. "You put a key in the lock and turn it. Now we have a fob with functionality."
The other common defense tactic advised by experts is to simply shift a runaway vehicle into neutral. But the ES 350 is equipped with an automatic transmission that can mimic manual shifting, and its shift lever on the console has a series of gates and detents that allow a driver to select any of at least four forward gears.
The arrangement of those gear selections could make it difficult to shift from a forward gear directly into neutral in a panic situation, Toyota spokesman Lyons acknowledged.
"I think it's possible to get the shifter confused, but I can't be sure that's what happened" in San Diego, Lyons said. "You'd be surprised how many people around here [Toyota] don't know what the neutral position is for."
The most obvious impulse for any driver experiencing sudden acceleration is to apply the brakes. But when an engine goes to full throttle and is speeding at 120 mph, the brake might not stop the car.
The ES 350 and most other modern vehicles are equipped with power-assisted brakes, which operate by drawing vacuum power from the engine. But when an engine opens to full throttle, the vacuum drops, and after one or two pumps of the brake pedal the power assist feature disappears.
As a result, a driver would have to apply enormous pressure to the brake pedal to stop the car, and if the throttle was wide open might not be able to stop it at all, safety experts say.
"I don't think you can stop a car going 120 mph and an engine at full throttle without power assist," said Ditlow, the safety center director.
Indeed, a 2007 study by federal highway safety officials showed that braking distance and force on a Lexus ES 350 increased fivefold when the throttle was wide open. And evidence introduced in sudden acceleration trials suggests that it can take up to 225 pounds of pressure on a brake pedal to arrest a runaway vehicle, far more than most drivers can muster from a seated position, said Edgar "Hike" Heiskell, a Charleston, W.Va., attorney who is suing Toyota over a fatal acceleration accident in Flint, Mich.
Lyons acknowledged that the vacuum can be depleted when an engine throttle is wide open, leaving the drivers without power-assisted brakes.
"There's a [federal] standard where you have to be able to stop the car without power-assisted brakes, but obviously I don't think it includes situations where the throttle is wide open," he added.
Drivers in other crashes also found it difficult to rein in a runaway Toyota. Guadalupe Gomez of Redwood City said he was held hostage for 20 miles on a Bay Area freeway by a 2007Camry traveling more than 100 mph.
Gomez was unable to turn off the engine or shift into neutral and then burned out his brakes before slamming into another car and killing that driver, said attorney Louis Franecke, who represented that victim's family.
The San Diego crash is still under investigation by the San Diego County Sheriff's Department and the CHP; until the probe is complete, neither agency is commenting.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, meanwhile, says it has an open investigation into sudden acceleration events involving Toyota vehicles.
ralph.vartabedian@latimes.com
ken.bensinger@latimes.com
Times staff writer Tony Perry in San Diego contributed to this report.
Copyright © 2009, The Los Angeles Times
10-19-09, 06:02 AM
#36
Lexus Champion
It's obvious that more information is needed on this issue. A lot of speculation right now.
In the meantime, I'll continue to keep the drivers side front mat (carpeted or all-weather) securely anchored to the floor using the clips provided.
In the meantime, I'll continue to keep the drivers side front mat (carpeted or all-weather) securely anchored to the floor using the clips provided.
10-19-09, 09:28 AM
#37
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After reading the report I can believe some of the speculation. What I find hard to believe is the inability to shift into neutral. But I can't speak authoritatively since I'm a GS owner and have never even driven a ES350. Is it that hard to shift it into neutral?
Even in a panic situation my car you can just bump it up and it goes into neutral. I've had it happen on accident before while someone was reaching into the back seat from the passenger seat.
Even in a panic situation my car you can just bump it up and it goes into neutral. I've had it happen on accident before while someone was reaching into the back seat from the passenger seat.
10-20-09, 12:58 AM
#39
Driver School Candidate
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I posted this at NASIOC on 10/06/09
I didn't know the button on my IS would kill the engine. Who reads the manual and who tests brakes from a high speed roll with the throttle wide open? I expect the brakes were already heated far too hot to stop the car before the driver determined the seriousness of his situation. I also understand this section of highway has a pretty good downhill grade. I have doubts that even cool brakes would stop the car from a 120 mph roll on a downhill run, WOT. Why hasn't this been tested? Hwy61
I must have an honest face. Not being able to find adequate answers I went into a Lexus dealership today to try to get to the bottom of how a Lexus like the one that killed four people in CA actually worked. There are no good answers anywhere that I have searched. Not the Lexus forums, not here, not Googling the incident regarding this or that. So after looking around for an answer, wondering about anti-lock brakes, how an ES transmission worked, what the ECU would control, how to shut the engine off in an emergency and not finding any really good info including comments from Lexus owners I decided the only way to get to the bottom of this was...................go to a Lexus dealer and take a test drive in an '09 ES 350.
Now exactly what Lexus dealer is going to turn over a new car to a guy dressed in work boots, blue jeans, jean work shirt, dried mud on the knees of his jeans. Especially after he tells them what he wants to do. Specifically, I want to take one of your new cars out and test drive it to see how the transmission works and whether or not the brakes can haul it down from 80 mph at full throttle.
They threw me a key fob and said go test that one and give us a report on what you find.
But before I get into that we had a little discussion at the dealership. It was the floor mat they said. Ah, but it isn't nearly that simple I replied. I've been to Lexus forums to read owner comments, gun forums, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Corvette, BMW, Porsche....etc. No one knows the answer, there seems to be a lot of confusion and no one has tested this. Why didn't the brakes stop the car, why didn't the driver shift to neutral?, can the car be shifted to neutral when accelerating?, etc.
So they turned me loose with one of their new '09 ES 350s. I had my camera, wishing I had new batteries it. I took a few pictures then realized it had a video mode. I had never used it. But, I fired that up in hopes that I could record what I learned
I sized up the interior and the dash, the accelerator pedal and the front mat that was still installed in this one. It was no where near the pedal. The brakes felt exactly like the ones in my Ford truck. Spongy but they seemed to work fine. I sped down the entrance ramp to the nearby interstate searching for a big hole in the evening traffic. Soon I had my chance. I eyed the start/stop button with suspicion should things not go well. I played around with the shifter putting it into the driver side slot, the sport section. The most forward position is marked as neutral, then drive with + and - for manually selecting lower or higher gears by pulling the lever to the rear. There is a short center gate position with nothing showing and a right gate that leads to reverse and a far right gate that leads to park.
70 mph came up quickly, the road was clear and straight for 1/2 mile front and rear, four lanes. I nailed it, the transmission downshifted once or twice, the tach hit about 5,700 rpm if I remember correctly. The car surged forward, I hit the brakes with my left foot hard at 80 mph, right foot still planted on the floorboard. The brakes hauled the car down, was it smooth, no, the car was shaking like the rotors were warped but I expect it was the anti-lock system kicking in. As I slowed enough to have ditched the car, put it against the rail, etc. appx 20 mph, the brakes were still good. I let off the brakes and reaccelerated to 80, foot still on the floor. This didn't take long and I hit the brakes hard again.
This time I had about 1/3 the braking force as before and the car would not stop. It did slow somewhat but not easily and not nearly enough. I was able to slow to appx 60 mph. I let off the brake pedal and ran it back up to 80. I immediately hit the brakes hard again. This time.....I had essentially no brakes. I stood on em. They had faded. I let off the accelerator and tested them again as traffic was ahead. They were still to hot to slow me. My conclusion. On this car you have one chance to stop with the brakes with the engine at WOT. If you play with the brakes, try to stop a bit, let off, allow the car to reaccelerate, try to stop while heating the brakes.... you aren't going to stop. This car has four wheel disc brakes. But they apparently have a limit and one stop from this speed with the engine at WOT is it.
Now about the transmission. From all "appearances" the left gate is the one you would use. It is lit, shows neutral, drive, lower gears. The right gate is for reverse and park. The very short center gate appears to do nothing. So with gear selection lever in the left gate and in the drive positon I pushed the gear selector all the way forward to neutral. Nothing. I accelerated and while accelerating pushed the lever all the way against the neutral position which is as far forward as it will go in the left gate. Again nothing, the transmission stays engaged.
So, what about downshifting? As I expected you can downshift progressively with each pull of the gear selector toward the rear. Downshift up to a point that is. The ECU controls how far down you can shift or if you can downshift at all, based on speed. At speed you cannot downshift. Reverse is locked out.
But what does that short center section do. No lights, no nothing but it is a gate. So I shifted into it. Here my options are drive and neutral, nothing else and nothing marked as best I could tell. Push forward on the gear selection lever in the center gate and the transmission goes into neutral regardless of throttle position. Yes, the engine will rev when in heavy acceleration and idle if you push the lever to neutral with your foot off the accelerator. Just like it should. What is a problem is that if you weren't familiar with the car and in a panic you might not recognize this gate as a viable option. I only tried it because I was testing everything. It wasn't my car so I wans't familiar with it. There is a functioning, manually engaged, non computer locked out neutral.
Next I tried the start/stop button. Punching it will do nothing to turn the engine off whether moving slowly, coasting or accelerating. On the other hand, holding it in continuously for several seconds will kill the engine regardless of throttle position and the car is completely controllable. A quick punch restarts the engine with all the normal start up lights on the dash lighting.
So our driver only needed to know there was a functioning, manually engaged neutral position and where to find it or, how to use the dash start/stop button to kill the engine. Unfortunately he apparently didn't know either. I suggested that all Lexus clients be notified about how to shut the engine off in an emergency and where the manual neutral is located. You can't control what aftermarket mats might be put in a car. You can't control the car wash guys to not reinstall the mat improperly. You can make sure purchasers know these two things. Hwy61
Now exactly what Lexus dealer is going to turn over a new car to a guy dressed in work boots, blue jeans, jean work shirt, dried mud on the knees of his jeans. Especially after he tells them what he wants to do. Specifically, I want to take one of your new cars out and test drive it to see how the transmission works and whether or not the brakes can haul it down from 80 mph at full throttle.
They threw me a key fob and said go test that one and give us a report on what you find.
But before I get into that we had a little discussion at the dealership. It was the floor mat they said. Ah, but it isn't nearly that simple I replied. I've been to Lexus forums to read owner comments, gun forums, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Corvette, BMW, Porsche....etc. No one knows the answer, there seems to be a lot of confusion and no one has tested this. Why didn't the brakes stop the car, why didn't the driver shift to neutral?, can the car be shifted to neutral when accelerating?, etc.
So they turned me loose with one of their new '09 ES 350s. I had my camera, wishing I had new batteries it. I took a few pictures then realized it had a video mode. I had never used it. But, I fired that up in hopes that I could record what I learned
I sized up the interior and the dash, the accelerator pedal and the front mat that was still installed in this one. It was no where near the pedal. The brakes felt exactly like the ones in my Ford truck. Spongy but they seemed to work fine. I sped down the entrance ramp to the nearby interstate searching for a big hole in the evening traffic. Soon I had my chance. I eyed the start/stop button with suspicion should things not go well. I played around with the shifter putting it into the driver side slot, the sport section. The most forward position is marked as neutral, then drive with + and - for manually selecting lower or higher gears by pulling the lever to the rear. There is a short center gate position with nothing showing and a right gate that leads to reverse and a far right gate that leads to park.
70 mph came up quickly, the road was clear and straight for 1/2 mile front and rear, four lanes. I nailed it, the transmission downshifted once or twice, the tach hit about 5,700 rpm if I remember correctly. The car surged forward, I hit the brakes with my left foot hard at 80 mph, right foot still planted on the floorboard. The brakes hauled the car down, was it smooth, no, the car was shaking like the rotors were warped but I expect it was the anti-lock system kicking in. As I slowed enough to have ditched the car, put it against the rail, etc. appx 20 mph, the brakes were still good. I let off the brakes and reaccelerated to 80, foot still on the floor. This didn't take long and I hit the brakes hard again.
This time I had about 1/3 the braking force as before and the car would not stop. It did slow somewhat but not easily and not nearly enough. I was able to slow to appx 60 mph. I let off the brake pedal and ran it back up to 80. I immediately hit the brakes hard again. This time.....I had essentially no brakes. I stood on em. They had faded. I let off the accelerator and tested them again as traffic was ahead. They were still to hot to slow me. My conclusion. On this car you have one chance to stop with the brakes with the engine at WOT. If you play with the brakes, try to stop a bit, let off, allow the car to reaccelerate, try to stop while heating the brakes.... you aren't going to stop. This car has four wheel disc brakes. But they apparently have a limit and one stop from this speed with the engine at WOT is it.
Now about the transmission. From all "appearances" the left gate is the one you would use. It is lit, shows neutral, drive, lower gears. The right gate is for reverse and park. The very short center gate appears to do nothing. So with gear selection lever in the left gate and in the drive positon I pushed the gear selector all the way forward to neutral. Nothing. I accelerated and while accelerating pushed the lever all the way against the neutral position which is as far forward as it will go in the left gate. Again nothing, the transmission stays engaged.
So, what about downshifting? As I expected you can downshift progressively with each pull of the gear selector toward the rear. Downshift up to a point that is. The ECU controls how far down you can shift or if you can downshift at all, based on speed. At speed you cannot downshift. Reverse is locked out.
But what does that short center section do. No lights, no nothing but it is a gate. So I shifted into it. Here my options are drive and neutral, nothing else and nothing marked as best I could tell. Push forward on the gear selection lever in the center gate and the transmission goes into neutral regardless of throttle position. Yes, the engine will rev when in heavy acceleration and idle if you push the lever to neutral with your foot off the accelerator. Just like it should. What is a problem is that if you weren't familiar with the car and in a panic you might not recognize this gate as a viable option. I only tried it because I was testing everything. It wasn't my car so I wans't familiar with it. There is a functioning, manually engaged, non computer locked out neutral.
Next I tried the start/stop button. Punching it will do nothing to turn the engine off whether moving slowly, coasting or accelerating. On the other hand, holding it in continuously for several seconds will kill the engine regardless of throttle position and the car is completely controllable. A quick punch restarts the engine with all the normal start up lights on the dash lighting.
So our driver only needed to know there was a functioning, manually engaged neutral position and where to find it or, how to use the dash start/stop button to kill the engine. Unfortunately he apparently didn't know either. I suggested that all Lexus clients be notified about how to shut the engine off in an emergency and where the manual neutral is located. You can't control what aftermarket mats might be put in a car. You can't control the car wash guys to not reinstall the mat improperly. You can make sure purchasers know these two things. Hwy61
10-20-09, 02:52 PM
#41
[QUOTE=Hwy61@bell;4940292]I posted this at NASIOC on 10/06/09
I didn't know the button on my IS would kill the engine. Who reads the manual and who tests brakes from a high speed roll with the throttle wide open?
I do!
I didn't know the button on my IS would kill the engine. Who reads the manual and who tests brakes from a high speed roll with the throttle wide open?
I do!
10-21-09, 05:07 AM
#43
I've had the Exact clear mats on top of the factory carpet mats and have never experienced those mats riding up to interfere with the pedals as they clip on over the carpet mats just enough. But, I can see how the OEM winter mats, if they are applied over the carpets mats, would never clip on. By themselves, they secure just fine. The only idea is that the mats, attached to the clip but the clip itself is not attached to the carpet hole provided. This would cause the mats to ride up to the pedals.
10-21-09, 04:45 PM
#44
I received mine today. It said to take out any floor mat and keep it out until Lexus comes up with a fix. Since my original floor mats are securely anchored by the clips I'm not going to do a thing.
The dealer also offered to inspect my car for proper floor mat installation free of charge.
The dealer also offered to inspect my car for proper floor mat installation free of charge.
11-25-09, 11:05 AM
#45
Pure speculation on my part but my guess is they covered the situation with Lexus brand mats previously. The problem is what happens when someone uses a mat purchased elsewhere? I bet the recall is for a redesigned accelerator pedal that does not come so close to the floorboard.
Pete
Pete
Pete