How interested are you in an ES hybrid?
01-28-10, 10:21 AM
#16
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Had a loaner Lexus HS250 today.
Trip computer was showing 35.5 average MPG over ~900 miles. Decide for yourself if that is good enough. I'm getting 26-28 mpg from my ES, depending on the driving mix.
And I did not like the car much. Looks like a Corolla. IMO Prius looks better - looks like nothing else.
This was my first time driving a hybrid, it did not feel smooth enough for me. At 55-65 mph there seems to be a tug of war between gas and gas+electric, and the car lurches back and forth ever so slightly. That gauge showing the power status, has the needle balancing between "Eco" and "Power" zones at these speeds.
I'm sure that the hybrid shines in stop-and-go city traffic. But the highway behavior is annoying.
And no, I do not want hybrid ES. More stuff to break, for more money, and with laughable savings.
Trip computer was showing 35.5 average MPG over ~900 miles. Decide for yourself if that is good enough. I'm getting 26-28 mpg from my ES, depending on the driving mix.
And I did not like the car much. Looks like a Corolla. IMO Prius looks better - looks like nothing else.
This was my first time driving a hybrid, it did not feel smooth enough for me. At 55-65 mph there seems to be a tug of war between gas and gas+electric, and the car lurches back and forth ever so slightly. That gauge showing the power status, has the needle balancing between "Eco" and "Power" zones at these speeds.
I'm sure that the hybrid shines in stop-and-go city traffic. But the highway behavior is annoying.
And no, I do not want hybrid ES. More stuff to break, for more money, and with laughable savings.
01-28-10, 03:28 PM
#17
IMO an ES hybrid is a no-brainer but I'm guessing that they regarded the mpg improvements as sufficient for a Camry hybrid, but for the ES 350 perhaps not as much. They decided for the Lexus lineup that the midsize hybrid would be the GS (and like the RXh, LSh, a chart-topping model). With the mass-produced ES, rather than more limited volume GSh and LSh, I'm guessing there were a number of factors which led to the HS 250h being introduced--note it is a lower displacement, less performance than ES 350.
01-28-10, 09:46 PM
#18
No interest due to the reduction in trunk space and the loss of performance assuming it uses Camry Hybrid drive train. If it were to use a larger ICE, I would worry about torque steer. My biggest complaint about my RX400h was the torque steer.
I would like to see a dedicated hybrid for Lexus with ES350 ride, performance, and room. Something like a scaled up Prius with IS250 ICE and AWD would do even it if cost $50K.
Steve
I would like to see a dedicated hybrid for Lexus with ES350 ride, performance, and room. Something like a scaled up Prius with IS250 ICE and AWD would do even it if cost $50K.
Steve
01-29-10, 03:47 AM
#19
I would guess I am the only person on this board wanting a 6-speed manual transmission with a real clutch pedal! Also a "Sport" suspension that just barely degrades the ride comfort. As you can tell I really wanted a BMW 535ix, but the overpriced car and maintenance, poor reliablity, and low resale, killed that car for me. Hybrid? I drove a new Camry, it hunts the power source too much for me. There is no savings! You do it for the enviroment only. Even that is in doubt.
01-31-10, 01:57 PM
#20
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I'm all for saving the environment and all, but frankly, the only reason to get a hybrid for me (other than gaining access to HOV lanes) is to save money. If I want to save the envirnment, I could provide a far greater impact by carpooling or biking a few days a month.... And if I'm concerned about what greenies "think of me" for driving one car over another, then I probably would not be driving a Lexus in the first place.
18 months ago we COMPLETELY priced out a Camry Hybrid vs a regular Camry and the hybrid was not much of a savings overall. I think at the time the hybrid was like $6500 more over a comparable Camry. We drove like 30k a year or so on 75% highway, as I recall. Certainly prior to 130k mi or so, you were in the red on the hybrid. and of course at 160k mi you needed a new battery which was like $2500 or somesuch.
All in all, you needed to drive a LOT of miles to break even and then start saving a bit. And this was when gas was over $4 a gallon. With gas down below $3, I bet the average buyer now actually pays more for a hybrid.
I'm sure a Prius vs an FJ offers a big savings, but to just "add" hybrid technology to an already decent mileage car is likely of marginal or no benefit for most buyers.
18 months ago we COMPLETELY priced out a Camry Hybrid vs a regular Camry and the hybrid was not much of a savings overall. I think at the time the hybrid was like $6500 more over a comparable Camry. We drove like 30k a year or so on 75% highway, as I recall. Certainly prior to 130k mi or so, you were in the red on the hybrid. and of course at 160k mi you needed a new battery which was like $2500 or somesuch.
All in all, you needed to drive a LOT of miles to break even and then start saving a bit. And this was when gas was over $4 a gallon. With gas down below $3, I bet the average buyer now actually pays more for a hybrid.
I'm sure a Prius vs an FJ offers a big savings, but to just "add" hybrid technology to an already decent mileage car is likely of marginal or no benefit for most buyers.
06-22-10, 02:14 PM
#21
Moderator
Very interesting read. Lexus could do more with the ES line.
There are a few here that want an AWD ES. Lexus does have an AWD LS, AWD GS and AWD IS. Maybe Lexus should consider an AWD ES since Lexus sells much more ES's than LS, GS and IS.
As for a hybrid ES I would definitely consider one. The RXh does sell well and I think the ESh would sell well also. It's up to Lexus to do want they want with the ES line.
ES 240 (China)
ES 350
Hopefully Lexus could expand the ES line with:
ES 350 awd
ES 250h or ES 450h
There are a few here that want an AWD ES. Lexus does have an AWD LS, AWD GS and AWD IS. Maybe Lexus should consider an AWD ES since Lexus sells much more ES's than LS, GS and IS.
As for a hybrid ES I would definitely consider one. The RXh does sell well and I think the ESh would sell well also. It's up to Lexus to do want they want with the ES line.
ES 240 (China)
ES 350
Hopefully Lexus could expand the ES line with:
ES 350 awd
ES 250h or ES 450h
06-22-10, 04:22 PM
#22
I usually buy a car that suits my styling taste. The HS did not fall into that category. I will not be around when everyone will be forced into a midget hybrid so they are off of my gota buy list. Gas powered cars/trucks will be here for at least 50+ years. I heard the other day there are 250M gas powered cars on the roads in the US so how long do you think it will take to replace them at the cost of a hybrid. Oh what will the power plants use to charge your car with.
06-23-10, 10:10 AM
#25
Moderator
I usually buy a car that suits my styling taste. The HS did not fall into that category. I will not be around when everyone will be forced into a midget hybrid so they are off of my gota buy list. Gas powered cars/trucks will be here for at least 50+ years. I heard the other day there are 250M gas powered cars on the roads in the US so how long do you think it will take to replace them at the cost of a hybrid. Oh what will the power plants use to charge your car with.
06-24-10, 07:01 AM
#26
With the assumption that all other aspects of a hybrid ES being at least equal to the current model.....AND....it would have a lithium battery to decrease size while increasing storage capacity and fuel economy, I would buy one in an instant. I could tolerate reduced performance for class-leading fuel economy, but would want the same smooth, quiet ride.
06-24-10, 08:41 AM
#27
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2010 GS450h - 23mpg combined, MSRP 57450
People don't buy hybrid GS for fuel economy. They buy it for performance and prestige. It beats non-hybrid handily in 0-60, 5.2 sec vs 5.7, and feels like a V8 engine.
Real question is - would you pay 5-6 grand more to get ES with hybrid Camry drivetrain, which performs very much like a four-cylinder. Yes, you could squeeze 40mpg out of it, but then people would have all the right to call it glorified hybrid Camry.
06-24-10, 12:56 PM
#29
2010 GS350 - 22mpg combined, MSPR 45600
2010 GS450h - 23mpg combined, MSRP 57450
People don't buy hybrid GS for fuel economy. They buy it for performance and prestige. It beats non-hybrid handily in 0-60, 5.2 sec vs 5.7, and feels like a V8 engine.
Real question is - would you pay 5-6 grand more to get ES with hybrid Camry drivetrain, which performs very much like a four-cylinder. Yes, you could squeeze 40mpg out of it, but then people would have all the right to call it glorified hybrid Camry.
2010 GS450h - 23mpg combined, MSRP 57450
People don't buy hybrid GS for fuel economy. They buy it for performance and prestige. It beats non-hybrid handily in 0-60, 5.2 sec vs 5.7, and feels like a V8 engine.
Real question is - would you pay 5-6 grand more to get ES with hybrid Camry drivetrain, which performs very much like a four-cylinder. Yes, you could squeeze 40mpg out of it, but then people would have all the right to call it glorified hybrid Camry.
I also agree with you that different people can select the same car for different reasons. To answer your question, for segment winning fuel economy and lower emissions, I would pay more for less power. You might not and that's why there's a variety of choices.
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