Mark Levinson Audio?
03-11-13, 12:59 PM
#76
My dealership is Lexus of Memphis. It's been almost a week now since they replaced the amp...no more distortion.
03-11-13, 05:02 PM
#77
Lexus Champion
If you're not getting distortion, that's a good sign so your speakers should not blow out.
So when are you upgrading your fog lights to LED? I thought they were getting the 5Ks this month which would be a better match, although the 6K are available now. I'd hate having only one light working.
So when are you upgrading your fog lights to LED? I thought they were getting the 5Ks this month which would be a better match, although the 6K are available now. I'd hate having only one light working.
03-11-13, 07:34 PM
#78
If you're not getting distortion, that's a good sign so your speakers should not blow out.
So when are you upgrading your fog lights to LED? I thought they were getting the 5Ks this month which would be a better match, although the 6K are available now. I'd hate having only one light working.
So when are you upgrading your fog lights to LED? I thought they were getting the 5Ks this month which would be a better match, although the 6K are available now. I'd hate having only one light working.
03-12-13, 08:00 PM
#80
Nope. The distortion is back. I just noticed it today and contacted my dealer to order another subwoofer. I'm not sure but I think once the speaker sounds busted; it's busted.
03-12-13, 08:06 PM
#81
Pole Position
03-12-13, 10:13 PM
#82
We just took delivery of our ES350 today with the ML system. I am not all that impressed. It is okay, but certainly not worth its price. I could do worlds better with the same money and 4-500 watts power. I suspect the 835 watts rating is probably dynamic power and the nominal power rating is about half of that. The sub-bass is basically one note muddy bass. The entire system would sound much better with a JBL MS-8 installed, with a much better sub.
I really don't think this sub issue is necessarily all to do with amp gain, but also a very weak subwoofer. I did not look close, but it appears to be a 6.5" or 8" shallow mount sub. It ain't gonna matter what the amp gain is on a sub like that, it is not going to ever consistently sound all that good with heavy bass music. The one in our ES bottoms out very easily. It's not blown, yet it would not take much to blow it.
We did not buy the UL package for the ML system, but since it is included and supposedly an expensive higher-end system, I certainly would expect better. Harman could have put a JBL sub in there that would sound much better. I also don't know how well the front baffle of the sub is sealed off from the trunk. I know some trunk decks are vented ... and if that is the case, an IB sub may not work properly. The front needs to be completely sealed off from the back, otherwise you get weak muddied bass, which is what this sounds like. Of course a poor sub will do the same on its own too.
Either way, I think the only thing that will fix it is to find a good 8" or 10" IB car sub and have it custom installed... and make sure the front is sealed off well from the back. It will extend farther into the trunk because of the mounting depth, but it should be able to handle a lot more power. Perhaps a $2-300 expense. I do believe a better sub would help the sound, although it is a bit on the harsh side up front to me, with the treble set to -2. At lower volumes the sub needs to be set to about +2, and then it sounds better, but then we can't turn it up loud at all... max about 35 or so. 40 will bottom it out.
Bottom line... it is a poorly designed and implemented system for the money it cost.
I really don't think this sub issue is necessarily all to do with amp gain, but also a very weak subwoofer. I did not look close, but it appears to be a 6.5" or 8" shallow mount sub. It ain't gonna matter what the amp gain is on a sub like that, it is not going to ever consistently sound all that good with heavy bass music. The one in our ES bottoms out very easily. It's not blown, yet it would not take much to blow it.
We did not buy the UL package for the ML system, but since it is included and supposedly an expensive higher-end system, I certainly would expect better. Harman could have put a JBL sub in there that would sound much better. I also don't know how well the front baffle of the sub is sealed off from the trunk. I know some trunk decks are vented ... and if that is the case, an IB sub may not work properly. The front needs to be completely sealed off from the back, otherwise you get weak muddied bass, which is what this sounds like. Of course a poor sub will do the same on its own too.
Either way, I think the only thing that will fix it is to find a good 8" or 10" IB car sub and have it custom installed... and make sure the front is sealed off well from the back. It will extend farther into the trunk because of the mounting depth, but it should be able to handle a lot more power. Perhaps a $2-300 expense. I do believe a better sub would help the sound, although it is a bit on the harsh side up front to me, with the treble set to -2. At lower volumes the sub needs to be set to about +2, and then it sounds better, but then we can't turn it up loud at all... max about 35 or so. 40 will bottom it out.
Bottom line... it is a poorly designed and implemented system for the money it cost.
03-12-13, 10:38 PM
#83
Pole Position
We just took delivery of our ES350 today with the ML system. I am not all that impressed. It is okay, but certainly not worth its price. I could do worlds better with the same money and 4-500 watts power. I suspect the 835 watts rating is probably dynamic power and the nominal power rating is about half of that. The sub-bass is basically one note muddy bass. The entire system would sound much better with a JBL MS-8 installed, with a much better sub.
I really don't think this sub issue is necessarily all to do with amp gain, but also a very weak subwoofer. I did not look close, but it appears to be a 6.5" or 8" shallow mount sub. It ain't gonna matter what the amp gain is on a sub like that, it is not going to ever consistently sound all that good with heavy bass music. The one in our ES bottoms out very easily. It's not blown, yet it would not take much to blow it.
We did not buy the UL package for the ML system, but since it is included and supposedly an expensive higher-end system, I certainly would expect better. Harman could have put a JBL sub in there that would sound much better. I also don't know how well the front baffle of the sub is sealed off from the trunk. I know some trunk decks are vented ... and if that is the case, an IB sub may not work properly. The front needs to be completely sealed off from the back, otherwise you get weak muddied bass, which is what this sounds like. Of course a poor sub will do the same on its own too.
Either way, I think the only thing that will fix it is to find a good 8" or 10" IB car sub and have it custom installed... and make sure the front is sealed off well from the back. It will extend farther into the trunk because of the mounting depth, but it should be able to handle a lot more power. Perhaps a $2-300 expense. I do believe a better sub would help the sound, although it is a bit on the harsh side up front to me, with the treble set to -2. At lower volumes the sub needs to be set to about +2, and then it sounds better, but then we can't turn it up loud at all... max about 35 or so. 40 will bottom it out.
Bottom line... it is a poorly designed and implemented system for the money it cost.
I really don't think this sub issue is necessarily all to do with amp gain, but also a very weak subwoofer. I did not look close, but it appears to be a 6.5" or 8" shallow mount sub. It ain't gonna matter what the amp gain is on a sub like that, it is not going to ever consistently sound all that good with heavy bass music. The one in our ES bottoms out very easily. It's not blown, yet it would not take much to blow it.
We did not buy the UL package for the ML system, but since it is included and supposedly an expensive higher-end system, I certainly would expect better. Harman could have put a JBL sub in there that would sound much better. I also don't know how well the front baffle of the sub is sealed off from the trunk. I know some trunk decks are vented ... and if that is the case, an IB sub may not work properly. The front needs to be completely sealed off from the back, otherwise you get weak muddied bass, which is what this sounds like. Of course a poor sub will do the same on its own too.
Either way, I think the only thing that will fix it is to find a good 8" or 10" IB car sub and have it custom installed... and make sure the front is sealed off well from the back. It will extend farther into the trunk because of the mounting depth, but it should be able to handle a lot more power. Perhaps a $2-300 expense. I do believe a better sub would help the sound, although it is a bit on the harsh side up front to me, with the treble set to -2. At lower volumes the sub needs to be set to about +2, and then it sounds better, but then we can't turn it up loud at all... max about 35 or so. 40 will bottom it out.
Bottom line... it is a poorly designed and implemented system for the money it cost.
03-13-13, 02:22 PM
#84
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Distortion is back
I also called back my contact at Harman (ML) but it appears the person is on vacation. I will inform him that in one case I know of the new amp did not fix the issue. I will also try and track down the manufacturer of the subwoofer, I have been told its a company called Premium Audio. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Does anyone have a close up photo of the manufactures sticker on the sub?
If it is indeed the result of a cheap sub then if we all complain enough it is possible that another fix for the speaker can be made. I know the sub in the LS 460 is much better, possibly the speaker manufacturers could find a way to substitute this sub for the one in the ES. It's not probable but not impossible. If I had the current sub replaced with a high quality aftermarket sub I would void the warranty of the entire entertainment system possibly. I don't know.
Thought. If the sub is bottoming out, could it be that the sub has more throw than the cavity allowes? Could the distortion we hear be simply the cone slapping against the speaker grill? I will check this out later.
One last question. What is the Sub rated at Watts RMS. if an aftermarket sub is put in and it requires a higher RMS it could burn out the power supply on the amp.
03-13-13, 03:26 PM
#85
Sorry, I can't give you that information. I don't want to jeopardize the business relationship between me and my SM. You'll have to find another way to convince your dealership about the ML distortion problem.
03-13-13, 08:31 PM
#86
When a sub bottoms out, basically the voice coil is hitting the back plate of the sub because it has reached its excursion limit... it has traveled as far as it can go and coming in contact with an area of the speaker that it is not suppose to come in contact with... thereby causing an unwanted/undesirable noise.
As it is moving too much, it indeed has more "throw" (excursion) than it is designed for. It would be nice if we could get the sub driver replaced by the manufacturer with a sub that has better excursion limits, but I am guessing this might be a challenge. There are not too many shallow mount subs out there that are all that great. There are a few good ones, but they are pretty expensive and perform better in a properly design enclosure.
I don't believe changing out the sub with a commercial sub is going to void the entire ML warranty. It would obviously void the subwoofer portion of the warranty, but you would not need that anymore anyway. If something happened to the amp, they could say that it was because of the aftermarket subwoofer, but this would only be an issue if you put a sub driver in there was wired with a 1 or 2 ohm load, which the ML amp is likely not designed for. Make sure you use a 4 ohm sub driver and there should be no reason for the amp to have any problems with it.
OR... you could use a line driver (see AudioControl) and use the speaker wires of the subwoofer to feed signal to another amp and subwoofer. That way there would be no chance of causing any issues with the ML amp. Of course that will cost even more and you have to find a mounting location for the amp and wire it up to the vehicle power. Professionally installed, it could be from $500 on up to a couple thousand, just depending on how good you want. Respectably good could be had for $750 - $1,000.
Yet, none of this should be necessary with the cost of this system.
As it is moving too much, it indeed has more "throw" (excursion) than it is designed for. It would be nice if we could get the sub driver replaced by the manufacturer with a sub that has better excursion limits, but I am guessing this might be a challenge. There are not too many shallow mount subs out there that are all that great. There are a few good ones, but they are pretty expensive and perform better in a properly design enclosure.
I don't believe changing out the sub with a commercial sub is going to void the entire ML warranty. It would obviously void the subwoofer portion of the warranty, but you would not need that anymore anyway. If something happened to the amp, they could say that it was because of the aftermarket subwoofer, but this would only be an issue if you put a sub driver in there was wired with a 1 or 2 ohm load, which the ML amp is likely not designed for. Make sure you use a 4 ohm sub driver and there should be no reason for the amp to have any problems with it.
OR... you could use a line driver (see AudioControl) and use the speaker wires of the subwoofer to feed signal to another amp and subwoofer. That way there would be no chance of causing any issues with the ML amp. Of course that will cost even more and you have to find a mounting location for the amp and wire it up to the vehicle power. Professionally installed, it could be from $500 on up to a couple thousand, just depending on how good you want. Respectably good could be had for $750 - $1,000.
Yet, none of this should be necessary with the cost of this system.
03-14-13, 01:57 AM
#89
I recently had my other Lexus in for service and received a ES350 with the premium sound (standard) audio system as the loaner. It really made me appreciate the ML much, much more!
Although I am not happy with the distortion, I have been able to 'control' it through use of the audio controls and get some very decent sound out of it.
Arty101, in fairness, it is not a $3700 option but part of one, and I do agree with you - the system should have been significantly better.
Although I am not happy with the distortion, I have been able to 'control' it through use of the audio controls and get some very decent sound out of it.
Arty101, in fairness, it is not a $3700 option but part of one, and I do agree with you - the system should have been significantly better.
Last edited by ElliotB; 03-14-13 at 05:25 AM.
