Are Navigation Systems Useless?
04-27-16, 07:26 PM
#61
Average cost for nav according to Edmunds for cars sold in US is $2150. The nav is $2650 in ES. $1530 in RC. COMAND in Mercedes is $3000 and up. A large profit margin. If it's 'standard' then they've inflated it in the cost somewhere you weren't knowledgeable about. When at Lexus for rotation he said he sells at least 5 updates a day and charges install fee on top. Latest firmwares won't update for nav/apps unless it has latest mapset.
Last edited by kellens; 04-27-16 at 07:33 PM.
04-27-16, 07:42 PM
#62
Lexus Fanatic
Average cost for nav according to Edmunds for cars sold in US is $2150. The nav is $2650 in ES. $1530 in RC. COMAND in Mercedes is $3000 and up. A large profit margin. If it's 'standard' then they've inflated it in the cost somewhere you weren't knowledgeable about. When at Lexus for rotation he said he sells at least 5 updates a day and charges install fee on top. Latest firmwares won't update for nav/apps unless it has latest mapset.
My dealer tells me they very rarely ever update a navigation system for a customer. I've called around pricing the update cost and was told the same by several local dealers. I've had Lexus vehicles with nav for 13 years and I have had plenty of firmware updates for nav and apps without upgrading the maps. I have only upgraded the maps on one of my Lexus cars once...it was 6 years old and that was a DVD and I was able to do it myself. If they tell buyers they have to upgrade the maps to upgrade the firmware then maybe thats why they sell that many upgrades.
If they offered a Carplay or Android Auto option they could still build in the profit that they make on nav systems.
Bottom line is, customers want the nav and overall are satisfied with the nav thats in the car now. Those of you that aren't are in the extreme minority.
04-27-16, 07:51 PM
#63
Of course its included in the cost if its "standard". The nav in the ES and RC is optional, but like I said its included in packages that the majority of those cars come equipped with. Its optional on entry level cars like the ES, not on upper market luxury cars.
My dealer tells me they very rarely ever update a navigation system for a customer. I've called around pricing the update cost and was told the same by several local dealers. I've had Lexus vehicles with nav for 13 years and I have had plenty of firmware updates for nav and apps without upgrading the maps. I have only upgraded the maps on one of my Lexus cars once...it was 6 years old and that was a DVD and I was able to do it myself. If they tell buyers they have to upgrade the maps to upgrade the firmware then maybe thats why they sell that many upgrades.
If they offered a Carplay or Android Auto option they could still build in the profit that they make on nav systems.
Bottom line is, customers want the nav and overall are satisfied with the nav thats in the car now. Those of you that aren't are in the extreme minority.
My dealer tells me they very rarely ever update a navigation system for a customer. I've called around pricing the update cost and was told the same by several local dealers. I've had Lexus vehicles with nav for 13 years and I have had plenty of firmware updates for nav and apps without upgrading the maps. I have only upgraded the maps on one of my Lexus cars once...it was 6 years old and that was a DVD and I was able to do it myself. If they tell buyers they have to upgrade the maps to upgrade the firmware then maybe thats why they sell that many upgrades.
If they offered a Carplay or Android Auto option they could still build in the profit that they make on nav systems.
Bottom line is, customers want the nav and overall are satisfied with the nav thats in the car now. Those of you that aren't are in the extreme minority.
Last edited by kellens; 04-27-16 at 08:03 PM.
04-27-16, 08:00 PM
#64
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by kellens
Owners satisfaction of onboard nav is terribly low based on factual data. Your personal experiences while may seem very logical and real to you, don't fit the facts.
And navigation was not optional on my LS460, its standard. Not optional on an MB S Class or BMW 7 Series. If you want an ES with ML audio or the UL package guess what? You must also purchase nav. It's optional...if you're okay with a base package or low package car. Want a GS350? Nav is standard. Optional on the GS200t but they don't even sell them here.
Of course I understand that it can't be updated with a DVD now. I said the only time I ever updated one was when it was a DVD system I could update myself.
My firmware was updated at the last service stop last week...I don't have the latest maps nor did anybody try and tell me I needed them. No dealer has ever tried to sell me an update to my nav, not a single time.
Last edited by SW17LS; 04-27-16 at 08:13 PM.
04-27-16, 08:05 PM
#65
Lexus Test Driver
My aftermarket nav system cost the equivalent of $300 including installation and I can download free map updates on a MicroSD card. Unfortunately the whole thing runs Windows CE so firmware updates are nonexistent. Carmakers make huge margins from nav units when a tablet with offline map data would probably be much cheaper and run faster.
04-27-16, 08:09 PM
#66
Lexus Fanatic
But you have an ugly awkward tablet you have to do something with on your dashboard. I'll take the built in nav thanks. I'd be totally fine if the built in screen ran off of my phone or whatever, but I want the screen built into the car.
04-27-16, 08:33 PM
#67
LS has built in Lexus' version of a "nav system" in the cost..and some..and they have at least updated it some since last refresh of the car a decade ago, but it's not their latest get nav. Plenty of mark up and then some...irrelevant...no car gives the system for free, and none really cutting edge to anyone with a smartphone or stand-alone gps made in last decade. The OP of this thread questions...is it useless. If YOU don't think so, great! If a dealer hasn't tried to sell you maps, and says you get the latest firmware on a latest gen system with old mapset, doesn't mean it's accurate or that money isn't the motivator in tech behind the power curve for financial reasons by car manufacturers.
04-27-16, 08:45 PM
#68
Google it. There's a couple out there... jd powers polled 20,000-30,000 owners a few times, and Edmunds did one. May be others..it's my job. But better than assuming your experience or opinion speaks for 'most'. If have problems with the google search or tech, reply and I will try and help you out.
04-27-16, 08:51 PM
#69
Lexus Fanatic
As I suspected...no data.
If you read what I've said, I'm he first person to say that Lexus is behind in tech, and I'm the first person to say that the future is some sort of system that integrates with and operates off of your phone. I recognize the built in system is not as "cutting edge" as what is available from a third party source, what I'm saying is I don't care. It's built in, I don't have to mount it or charge it or fumble with it, and it's good enough to get me where I'm going.
My point was that having the navigation functionality be mirrored off of a phone does not neccisarily mean a reduction in profit for the carmaker, because these systems have become either standard, or all but standard. Carmakers aren't going to reduce prices of their vehicles or their packages simply because the navigation feature is now somethings that is run off of a smartphone through the cars system.
That's the future and its coming. What I was calling into question is this idea that navigation systems are some huge profit center, that profit is derivable from other sources.
FYI, the LS does indeed have the latest version of Lexus' nav. Same navigation as is available on every other 2016 Lexus product (mine is a 2015 and is thus the previous generation).
Bottom line is you're not nearly as knowledgable about this subject as you think you are.
If you read what I've said, I'm he first person to say that Lexus is behind in tech, and I'm the first person to say that the future is some sort of system that integrates with and operates off of your phone. I recognize the built in system is not as "cutting edge" as what is available from a third party source, what I'm saying is I don't care. It's built in, I don't have to mount it or charge it or fumble with it, and it's good enough to get me where I'm going.
My point was that having the navigation functionality be mirrored off of a phone does not neccisarily mean a reduction in profit for the carmaker, because these systems have become either standard, or all but standard. Carmakers aren't going to reduce prices of their vehicles or their packages simply because the navigation feature is now somethings that is run off of a smartphone through the cars system.
That's the future and its coming. What I was calling into question is this idea that navigation systems are some huge profit center, that profit is derivable from other sources.
FYI, the LS does indeed have the latest version of Lexus' nav. Same navigation as is available on every other 2016 Lexus product (mine is a 2015 and is thus the previous generation).
Bottom line is you're not nearly as knowledgable about this subject as you think you are.
04-27-16, 08:56 PM
#71
Lexus Fanatic
Google it. There's a couple out there... jd powers polled 20,000-30,000 owners a few times, and Edmunds did one. May be others..it's my job. But better than assuming your experience or opinion speaks for 'most'. If have problems with the google search or tech, reply and I will try and help you out.
The fact that you're so rude undercuts your position, doesn't strengthen it. If you're trying to paint me as somehow some sort of technofobed idiot...I don't think you're going to get much traction there. Its not my first day on ClubLexus.
04-27-16, 09:17 PM
#72
Lead Lap
Then by all means please share with us this factual data that shows owner satisfaction with onboard nav is "terribly low".
And navigation was not optional on my LS460, its standard. Not optional on an MB S Class or BMW 7 Series. If you want an ES with ML audio or the UL package guess what? You must also purchase nav. It's optional...if you're okay with a base package or low package car. Want a GS350? Nav is standard. Optional on the GS200t but they don't even sell them here.
Of course I understand that it can't be updated with a DVD now. I said the only time I ever updated one was when it was a DVD system I could update myself.
My firmware was updated at the last service stop last week...I don't have the latest maps nor did anybody try and tell me I needed them. No dealer has ever tried to sell me an update to my nav, not a single time.
And navigation was not optional on my LS460, its standard. Not optional on an MB S Class or BMW 7 Series. If you want an ES with ML audio or the UL package guess what? You must also purchase nav. It's optional...if you're okay with a base package or low package car. Want a GS350? Nav is standard. Optional on the GS200t but they don't even sell them here.
Of course I understand that it can't be updated with a DVD now. I said the only time I ever updated one was when it was a DVD system I could update myself.
My firmware was updated at the last service stop last week...I don't have the latest maps nor did anybody try and tell me I needed them. No dealer has ever tried to sell me an update to my nav, not a single time.
Think of it this way, BMW, the first to go standard Navigation increased their 5/X5 series prices by a couple hundred dollars (might be 21xx but my memory is fuzzy) and made all those models and above have standard Navigation. Regular bluetooth is free, but smartphone enchanced bluetooth is a $200 add on.
Navigation for the middle to upper echelon models is becoming standard. What they are going to make money on now is safety tech addons, and additional software layers enabling Carplay and AA.
Whatever the case, one does not have to worry since, Lexus has stuck is head in the sand and said NO to both of those front end softwares. Best you can do is aftermarket who is said to launch something. In regards to Navigation, who cares for the Lexus, the navigation is old and locks you out during driving so, useless either way. No google maps or online services for maps is available. The only thing Lexus Navigation offers your is that if you loose service on your phone, at least the car still might have GPS lock to navigate you to your destination. Besides that its useless and the same since 2007. So think of a outdated, old Offline Google Maps in case of emergency.
To Kellen, that dealer is quite the smart stealer. Update nav base for a firmware update LOL making bank one way or the other
04-27-16, 09:49 PM
#73
Lexus Fanatic
Lexus will come around on the tech, wait and see.
Just because something may be outdated doesn't mean it's "useless". I use it every day and it works fine.
It's not only the same as in 2007, it's essentially the same nav system Lexus has been using since 2001, graphics and UI are a little tweaked, but basically it's the same system. Still works though, not useless.
Just because something may be outdated doesn't mean it's "useless". I use it every day and it works fine.
It's not only the same as in 2007, it's essentially the same nav system Lexus has been using since 2001, graphics and UI are a little tweaked, but basically it's the same system. Still works though, not useless.
04-27-16, 11:18 PM
#74
Lexus Test Driver
Why can't Lexus or Toyota do this instead of offering locked-in platforms? I'm not asking for user-upgradeable ECUs.
See attached pic, that system is $600 in Italy but only $300 in China.
Last edited by chromedome; 04-27-16 at 11:31 PM.
04-28-16, 05:18 AM
#75
Well, for $300 I have an aftermarket system that replaces the original display and interfaces with the rest of the car. It fits seamlessly with plastic trim and a new controller that look OEM. It also lets me do totally dodgy things like watching videos from USB or DVD while driving. The best thing about it is the nav app is a separate WinCE program that runs off MicroSD so a new app or map update is just a download away.
Why can't Lexus or Toyota do this instead of offering locked-in platforms? I'm not asking for user-upgradeable ECUs.
See attached pic, that system is $600 in Italy but only $300 in China.
Why can't Lexus or Toyota do this instead of offering locked-in platforms? I'm not asking for user-upgradeable ECUs.
See attached pic, that system is $600 in Italy but only $300 in China.
