When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Thanks for all of the replies! I Appreciate the opinions and information. Everyone's butt meter is different but like I said, I'm comparing it to an air suspended LS460 which is really the equivalent of riding on a cloud!
Originally Posted by ESAsh
What tire pressure you running? I run 36psi on the 17" wheels, I tried upping the pressure a couple psi and the ride was noticeably less soft, I'd reckon the 18" UL wheels could do with 34psi to make up for less tire wall.
We're running 36 psi in the 18's. I thought that it might be the tires too. It has Michelin's, which are known to be good tires but there are models that run better than others. That's just a guess though.
Originally Posted by BBQapple
Part of the issue is the ES is a mid level not really a luxury car and the suspension components are almost all steel instead of lighter weight forged aluminum which you’d see in the LS. That’s more mass that has to overcome inertia each time you hit a bump and the wheel isn’t as controlled plus sends a bigger “wham” shock through the chassis. There’s only so much you can do with spring and damper rates when there’s physics to overcome.
You could overcome much of that by going to lightweight wheels, plus of course more comfort benefits if you move from an 18 inch wheel to a 17 inch setup along with even bigger weight savings. The 18 inch NR wheels are super heavy.
Also if your car has the Bridgestone Turanza tires, they’re not great.
I had an LS430 years ago and still miss it…
All good points and I've been thinking along the same lines as you are. I've been looking at some wheels made by a company called SuperSpeed. The 18" versions weigh in at under 19 lbs. each and they actually are Great looking too and that's for an 18 x 9.5" wheel too. Not too mention that it's a flow form construction, not a cast wheel.
Usually, when you try to drop wheel weight, the options are either light or good looking but these are both. Enkei also makes some nice, light wheels.I'm just worried that with them being light, that they aren't strong enough for a daily driven car on roads that aren't so good. I'd be interested in the black faced, Machined lip wheel because the machine lip would pull from the chrome on the trim and the black would add some contrast to the EP (Eminent Pearl) paint.
I'm in the minority on this, but here was my reaction when I test drove a '20 Luxury, and my '22 Ultra Luxury turned out to be similar:
Once underway, I got my big surprise: This is not a boat. Not in either the bad or good sense of the term.
I expected some body float, and I detected hardly any. I expected some body roll in fairly fast corners, and there was very little. I also expected the car to fully suppress tire noise over rougher surfaces and swallow frost heaves without a trace. It did neither.
In fact, to my butt and inner ear, the car sounded and acted less like an old man's DeVille and more like the fourth-gen Acura TL (the last-gen enlarged one with the beak grille). I've owned good-handling cars, including a GTI and a golden-age 4DSC Maxima SE, and I thought this car gave a very good account of itself in routine cornering, with one conspicuous exception: off the line with the wheel turned, where it simply breaks 'em loose and squeals "Arrest me" while going wide and completely failing to gain traction. Savagegeese said this car needs limited slip, and I agree with him 100%. I haven't driven the F Sport, and I'm sincerely not curious to. To me, this car behaves like I expected the F Sport would. Obviously anyone whose first priority is performance is silly to consider any ES; as we all know, it's simply not built for that. But I'd actually have preferred if the Lexus engineers had softened this car a bit more.
Various independent testers have said the F Sport is stiffer, even at its softest setting. So you can imagine my surprise when I read posters in this thread -- whose opinions are every bit as valid as mine -- reporting that they consider their F Sports to have an outstandingly comfortable ride.
Yes, the LS's air suspension is the killer app for ride comfort. But be aware that doesn't necessarily mean you'll achieve the same result by fitting an aftermarket air suspension to your ES. The LS is a more expensive car with a longer wheelbase, an entirely different platform, and very expensive suspension components engineered to deliver that magic carpet ride you enjoyed. The ES is a front-drive car on a new, stiff platform meant to split the difference between ride comfort and approximately German-adjacent handling, adapted from the same bones that were cost-engineered to enable affordable production of Camrys and Corollas. To be blunt, only so much is possible.
Thanks for the info and you made quite a few good points.
I understand that and agree that it can handle well for what it is and I was pleasantly surprised at how it does that but I did expect an car labelled as "Ultra Luxury" to be well, more luxurious as far as ride comfort goes. It's got tech and quite a few features that are Great (Panorama view is my favorite and was our reason for getting the UL over the F-Sport which I think looks better but function won out over form this time) but it rides like an F-Sport to our butts. We've had some High Performance, Great handling cars before and this one rides like one.
I like a car that can handle some road work (corners) but I don't do it enough to want it to feel like that all of the time. Maybe I just expected too much form the "Ultra Luxury" moniker.
Originally Posted by Shaboom
Are you at 36 psi in the garage at night when the tires and air are cold or when they’re warmed up from driving a while and if 36 psi heated up, then probably 33 psi at rest? Just want my 350 ES tires to be inflated correctly and for the best ride.
36 psi at night, so you might be on to something there. The tires are filled with the dealership overpriced nitrogen which is supposed to be more stable than air but they might just be set too high. Thanks for the suggestion!
I wonder if I fill them with helium if I'd get better mileage!
Originally Posted by CJS57
Yes your wife is correct. It is a firm even hard ride for a semi-luxury car. My 2010 ES 350 was quite a bit nice ride.
Thank You for your response! She'll be Happy to hear that someone agrees with her! For the record, I agree too but like I said, maybe I expected too much because I'm comparing it to our LS, which isn't really fair to Esther (the name of our ES350 because who doesn't name their cars ).
Originally Posted by ATL350
The sad reality is that this is another example of the decades long push to make it all "sporty" and "not your dad's car", because, hey, after all everyone like's a "firm" (or hard or harsh) ride, no? If it's soft, why you won't be able to control it, might flip it just going around a corner - well, at least from the stories and comments you hear from people and, of course, the automotive press, one of the biggest reasons for it all, not public demand. I grew up in the era of the big "floaty Baracalounger on wheels" car and I don't recall cashed and burned cars at every intersection due to their soft suspensions.
There are always people who want a true sports ride, prioritizing handling and performance in their cars - and that's great and that should always be an option. What we have now, however, is by and large a choice of hard or less hard, not actually comfortable. Ad in universally hard seats and you remove a lot of comfort in driving. I have a 22 ES350 UL, coming back to the brand after a number of years with no car (while I lived in NYC) and then a few years of a Mercedes E350 once I moved. I do love my 22 but I immediately noticed it is not nearly as soft riding or cushy as my last ES back from 2006, not by a long shot. Even the LS was severely criticized in its last iteration for how Lexus had tried to compete with MB and BMW and focused on "performance" which made the ride overly harsh. Even the dear press complained. Changes to the bushings, spring rates, etc. eventually helped along with the availability of air suspension.
Air is great if done right but can be very expensive and problem prone, especially once out of warranty. The cost of that system wouldn't make a lot of economic sense for Lexus in the ES line from the pricing point, I'm guessing. But don't focus on the stamped steel versus aluminum suspension as the main culprit - the older, smoother ES's all had steel as did the old comfy cars of yore. Unsprung weight is important for some reasons but is not the main determinant. Lexus made a conscious effort to stiffen up the ride in this current generation of ES in order to "be more competitive", using, of course, the assumption that the old version was a geezer set up and the hip new customers would want a firmer ride, I guess. But I think they went too far. Yes, with modern tires, especially, handling is, and should be better today, but there is a compromise point between ride and handling, and corporate Lexus has clearly landed on the handling side of the equation.
The last comment is just an old one for me - stick to the recommended cold psi for your tires and don't put in less air to make the ride better. Sure it will negatively affect your mileage and tire wear, which some won't care about, but you will also lessen the actual handling of the car if you put it too low (it's all engineered to work in certain parameters, of course) and the tires will generate more heat which may eventually lead to failure. So it's not worth it.
Do I wish my 22 rode better? Yes. Mind you, it's not bad most of the time, and actually a far sight better than many other cars, but it is still a noticeable change.
Thanks for your insight and opinion/thoughts. I agree with you as far as price points and also Lexus trying to compete with the German's. The problem that I see there is that Lexus isn't really known for performance like the BMW, Audi's and Mercedes Benz cars are (BMW M's, Merc AMG and Audi RS/S stuff) but they are known for building some of the most reliable, comfortable cars on the planet. They should just stick to that. I don't know if the coil springs are the same on all of the ES cars and then they just change the body parts. If that's the case, then the F-Sport rides like an UL and the UL is over sprung for being a UL.
I agree with the tenor of the comments on the ride quality of the ES (300h in my case). It's a tradeoff between handling and floaty comfort. On a bumpy road I feel the bumps, but they are nicely buffered. Seems like a good compromise between floaty and rigidity. On a ten mile stretch of hairpin curves near Yosemite it wasn't on a rail like a sports car, but it didn't fight against hanging in the curves either. Again, a fairly nice compromise. On the freeway it's smooth and quiet; no compromise there.
As far as air pressure, the Car Care Nut said that five pounds over the recommended air pressure would not cause any problems and would provide enhanced mileage. So I have kept my pressure at a cold 40. The mileage has been great! And I get a bigger dopamine rush from extra MPG than I do from a softer ride.
I have driven 2022 ES250 F Sport and 2023 ES250 F Sport, and even NX250 F Sport.
I must say that in the first half our, the ES F Sport suspension feels so smooth and quiet.
However, after about 1/2 an hour, the ES250 F Sport suspension feels too touring née sporting-luxury, with both firm springs and firm shock absorbers.
Together with the firm seats, it is too tiring for me!
Lexus firmed up the 4GS range too from 2012-20.
Ditto the 2023 NX250 F Sport.
However, unlike the NX, at least the ES has a lot of sound insulation to hide firewall and road noise.
I must ask, apart from 19” wheels shod with “sports” [not touring] Dunlop SP Sport Maxx 050 tyres, does the ES250 F Sport actually use firmer springs, firmer roll bars and firmer shock absorbers than the regular base model ES?
Because if the F Sport trim uses the same springs, roll bars and shock absorbers as the base model ES, then the entire 7ES range is stuffed IMO!
IMO, new incoming president Koji Sato should avoid cost cutting, and like the Germans, the Luxury and Sports trims should use two separate sets of springs, roll bars and shock absorbers - a separate set for luxury and a separate set for sports.
AFAIK, ex-president Akio Toyoda 2009-23 was fond of automobile racing, so he sportified the TMC range with a “no more boring cars formula”.
He wanted more spirited styling and more spirited dynamics.
TMC must get back to their grass roots.
I must ask, apart from 19” wheels shod with “sports” [not touring] Dunlop SP Sport Maxx 050 tyres, does the ES250 F Sport actually use firmer springs, firmer roll bars and firmer shock absorbers than the regular base model ES?
Because if the F Sport trim uses the same springs, roll bars and shock absorbers as the base model ES, then the entire 7ES range is stuffed IMO!
IMO, new incoming president Koji Sato should avoid cost cutting, and like the Germans, the Luxury and Sports trims should use two separate sets of springs, roll bars and shock absorbers - a separate set for luxury and a separate set for sports.
I don't know about the 250 AWD in particular, but in general the F Sport is available in two flavors: Adaptive Variable Suspension with stiffer springs, and the regular suspenders with just an exterior and interior looks package.
I don't know about the 250 AWD in particular, but in general the F Sport is available in two flavors: Adaptive Variable Suspension with stiffer springs, and the regular suspenders with just an exterior and interior looks package.
So you're absolutely positive the F Sport trim is available in a choice of either:
1) Regular springs, roll bars and shock absorbers, and
2) Stiffer springs, with stiffer roll bars, and stiffer electronic adaptive variable valve shock absorbers?
Actually, I just came up with an idea.
I'll try an order one from website, and see if it allows me to select suspension.
However, according to the website, the ES250 AWD in F Sport trim only comes with standard suspension.
Only the ES300h & ES350 F Sport has the Adaptive Suspension option!
The Adaptive Variable suspension may only add electronic variable valve shock absorbers, and makes no difference to the coil spring rates nor roll bar rates?
However, I’m still glad that President Akio has handed the reigns over to Koji Sato, and hopefully Koji spends a bit of money with two different suspension setups for luxury trim and sports trim - just like the Germans - rather than cost cutting by using only one firm sporty setup across the range.
Lexus ES spring rates should be dictated by the market and consumers, rather than dictated by President Akio’s Nurburgring racing friend and former Aston Martin CEO Ulrich Bez who criticized Toyota products for being bland - which stimulated Akio to respond with his “No more boring cars” concept.
In truth, Bez is envious of TMC’s financial success compared to Aston Martin’s continuing financial losses.
Toyota products are not bland, and there is no need to firm up Lexus ES suspension across the range.
So you're absolutely positive the F Sport trim is available in a choice of either:
1) Regular springs, roll bars and shock absorbers, and
2) Stiffer springs, with stiffer roll bars, and stiffer electronic adaptive variable valve shock absorbers?
Actually, I just came up with an idea.
I'll try an order one from website, and see if it allows me to select suspension.
However, according to the website, the ES250 AWD in F Sport trim only comes with standard suspension.
Only the ES300h & ES350 F Sport has the Adaptive Suspension option!
The Adaptive Variable suspension may only add electronic variable valve shock absorbers, and makes no difference to the coil spring rates nor roll bar rates?
However, I’m still glad that President Akio has handed the reigns over to Koji Sato, and hopefully Koji spends a bit of money with two different suspension setups for luxury trim and sports trim - just like the Germans - rather than cost cutting by using only one firm sporty setup across the range.
Lexus ES spring rates should be dictated by the market and consumers, rather than dictated by President Akio’s Nurburgring racing friend and former Aston Martin CEO Ulrich Bez who criticized Toyota products for being bland - which stimulated Akio to respond with his “No more boring cars” concept.
In truth, Bez is envious of TMC’s financial success compared to Aston Martin’s continuing financial losses.
Toyota products are not bland, and there is no need to firm up Lexus ES suspension across the range.
I couldn't agree more with your statements! I've been to many track days/auto crosses and have yet to see a competitive or even non competitive ES350 of any year on them. That includes the drag strip (unless it was a test n' tune on Friday's). If you want it to look sporty, that's alright but if you want it to be sporty, then that';s another story. I like the sporty look but want the luxury ride and who says I can't have it all? Lexus does!
I agree with you that Lexus should tailor the car to the buying market, not because they think the brand needs a facelift to market it as a sporty brand. Lexus has been labelled as a luxury brand and it's worked so far, so why change it up. You can spice things up when you go to an electric platform because you've got more room to work with (don't have to design around the ICE motor which gives you considerable more design choices).
In answering your question concerning variable rate shocks, the purpose of a shock is to stop the spring from bouncing and it doesn't change the spring rate. The spring rate is determined by the thickness of the coil and how it's wound. I think that if Lexus was going to use the one spring fits all deal in these cars, they should use a progressive spring, where it's softer at the beginning part of compression and then firmer as you compress it. This would give a softer ride on the smaller bumps and a firmer ride if you compress it more in a cornering environment.
As far as sway bars, they work when the car goes into a yaw transition (turning) and have very little effect on ride quality. In racing, you can tune how the car handles in a corner (oversteer or understeer) by the sway bar size, length, etc.
You might know all of this already but I'm just trying to answer your question. I hope that I helped do that.
As far as sway bars, they work when the car goes into a yaw transition (turning) and have very little effect on ride quality. In racing, you can tune how the car handles in a corner (oversteer or understeer) by the sway bar size, length, etc.
Sway bars in general do slightly hurt ride quality because they compromise side-to-side independence when only one wheel encounters a bump. It's why cars with torsion-beam rear suspensions don't stay as poised in bumpy corners as those with IRS do.
[QUOTE=peteharvey;11501054]I have driven 2022 ES250 F Sport and 2023 ES250 F Sport, and even NX250 F Sport.
I must say that in the first half our, the ES F Sport suspension feels so smooth and quiet.
However, after about 1/2 an hour, the ES250 F Sport suspension feels too touring née sporting-luxury, with both firm springs and firm shock absorbers.
Together with the firm seats, it is too tiring for me!from 2012-20.[QUOTE]
This is such an important observation. People love the idea and look of a sportier trim or styling and the salesperson takes them on a 10 minute drive…wow, this is cool, I love the way it handles, etc…where do I sign.
Then, for some (not all), the daily grind sets in, say, commuting to and from work over regular, poorly maintained roads, frost heaves, pot holes and shoddy repairs and all the rest, and the fun car has now become not at all comfortable or relaxing to drive in the real world, the way it is actually used 90% of the time. And the enthusiasm fades or vanishes.
If you’re buying a primary or perhaps only car you need to be realistic as to how you’ll actually use it. Most of us don’t live near or drive on twisty canyon roads or beautiful snaking coastal roads like in the auto reviews. It won’t matter to some, but I have experienced it myself and know others who have as well..and you won’t make the same mistake twice. A second or weekend car is a different story, but most of us just have one or two for “regular” driving, so buy wisely.
Have you guys tried test driving the non-AMG and non-M Sport version of C300 and 330i?
I have, and they are both compact, but they ride absolutely beautifully, so no wonder they are both two top sellers!
I find it disappointing that former President Akio should be so gullible as to truly believe his friend and former Aston Martin CEO Ulrich Bez that TMC products are bland, so Lexus must firm up ES’s handling - yet Benz and Beamer don’t ride firmly at all.
Quick question, when you speak of your butt and inner ear, have you noticed a bit of vibration coming in from the seat? I have a '23 Ultra Luxury and get occasional vibrations through the seat bottom. I expected a floatier ride; however, it is reasonably smooth but still feels stiff for my taste.
Quick question, when you speak of your butt and inner ear, have you noticed a bit of vibration coming in from the seat? I have a '23 Ultra Luxury and get occasional vibrations through the seat bottom. I expected a floatier ride; however, it is reasonably smooth but still feels stiff for my taste.
Thanks!
You are right JPB23.
It seems that instead of a luxury car ride, the 2019-25 7ES has gone for a sporting-luxury [nee touring car] ride.
Hence, the springs are a bit stiffer, and the roll bars a bit stiffer too, and the shock absorbers are a bit firmer for control of float too.
At least it is not an outright "sports" ride.
Some say competitors like Acura TLX ride similarly to new 7ES, however the German E Class, 5 Series and A6 - non-AMG, non-M Sport and non-S Line - ALL have luxurious soft rides.
Former President Akio had too much "No more boring cars" bs IMO.
We can only pray that new incoming President Koji Sato makes a big change, and copies off the Germans by making two different sets of suspension rates for luxury and sports trims.
When I got my ES the weather was warmer, and I thought the ride was like a sofa on wheels (then again, I am used to firm sports cars, this is my first luxury car). Now the weather has gotten colder here and I'm experiencing some of the "covered wagon" vibe and I'm on 17's!
So I'm wondering weather it was just the honey moon phase or in fact that colder weather negatively impacts the shocks ability to absorb low level imperfections in the road (colder fluid in shocks=more viscous=less dampening ability).
When I got my ES the weather was warmer, and I thought the ride was like a sofa on wheels (then again, I am used to firm sports cars, this is my first luxury car). Now the weather has gotten colder here and I'm experiencing some of the "covered wagon" vibe and I'm on 17's!
So I'm wondering weather it was just the honey moon phase or in fact that colder weather negatively impacts the shocks ability to absorb low level imperfections in the road (colder fluid in shocks=more viscous=less dampening ability).
Check your early morning cold tire pressures? It could be too low, resulting in bottoming out?
Meanwhile, I'm not sure if cold temperatures cause coil and torsion springs to become stiffer?
Any engineers here?
Cold temperatures may cause the oil inside the shock absorbers to become more viscous for too much damping control - which results in a higher frequency of vertical oscillations - perceived as a tiring ride.
Normally, as temperatures rise, oils become thinner - resulting in floatier shock absorbers.
Also remember that the oil inside shock absorbers can contain some silicone which cleverly becomes more viscous as temperatures rise - and this is how Ferguson viscous couplings work.
If Koji Sato continues former President Akio's use of sports suspension across the range, with no luxury suspension option, then I have no choice but to go back to purchasing Mercedes-Benz - and put up with their much higher servicing and repair costs.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with sports springs, sports roll bars and sports shock absorbers - just simultaneously make available a luxury set of springs, roll bars and shock absorbers - for a twin choice between luxury/sports...
All good points and I've been thinking along the same lines as you are. I've been looking at some wheels made by a company called SuperSpeed. The 18" versions weigh in at under 19 lbs. each and they actually are Great looking too and that's for an 18 x 9.5" wheel too. Not too mention that it's a flow form construction, not a cast wheel.
Usually, when you try to drop wheel weight, the options are either light or good looking but these are both. Enkei also makes some nice, light wheels.I'm just worried that with them being light, that they aren't strong enough for a daily driven car on roads that aren't so good. I'd be interested in the black faced, Machined lip wheel because the machine lip would pull from the chrome on the trim and the black would add some contrast to the EP (Eminent Pearl) paint.
05-05-23, 11:39 AM
).
