Wilson2000

I don't see it as a debate, I see it as a friendly discussion. I'm interested in all opinions, and try not to present my own as truth.

Please, do start another discussion on ATF. I would love to chime in with my opinions! There are some good discussions on ATF in other model forums, why not the 7th gen ES forum? I'll answer my own question: If there aren't any, it's likely because people don't worry about their ATF until they start having tranny issues (although, once you have symptoms, it may be too late), and, the 7th gen cars are still too new to be having tranny issues.

mikemu30

Or many of us never keep a car long enough to worry about trans fluid But I do know folks that have driven Toyotas and even Hyundais 250K miles+ on the original trans fluid. Do whatever makes you sleep well at night!

losiglow

100%. I've owned an Audi A6 with the 3.0 SC and a few Acura TL's with Honda's J32 and J35, with an Eaton M90 SC installed on the J35.

I used Amsoil and Redline oils for THOSE cars. This hybrid engine - I don't think I've gotten it above 4k RPM in the last two weeks more than once. I drive it like a grandma since I'm always playing the game of "how high can I get my MPG this week?" I rotate between Mobil 1 and Valvoline Platinum 0W-16 and feel like those are more than adequate.

So I'm not too concerned about protection during active use (when the engine is running) but when the engine isn't running. I assume Toyota has taken this into account with hybrids. You don't hear about too many old hybrids with engine problems but it still makes me wonder. My understanding is the oil pump is still mechanical and only operates when the engine is running. I know that todays oils are much better about retaining bonds with metal parts but sometimes the engine may be off for 5 minutes or more. That's quite a bit of time to allow the oil to drain off metal contact parts and down into the oil pan. Does anyone know if there have been issues with a lack of oil flow this long followed by the engine firing back up? Wouldn't this result in a high number of low-oil incidents, similar to a cold start, where parts of the engine would be starved for oil for a short period of time?

That is what concerns me. However, I don't know if the oil tests really capture that type of scenario since it would have to be some sort of measure of how good the oil is at continuing to bond to metal after the oil pump has stopped pumping fresh oil to the engine.

losiglow

To add my own anecdotal experience - I had a 2017 ES300h which I put about 280k miles on. I changed the oil every 7500-10000 miles. Yes, I went the 10K mile OCI on several occasions.

With my 2022, I change it every 5000-6000 miles. But even with the 2017, after that many miles I never had any oil burning problems. The oil was at the same level when I drained it as when I initially filled it. Apparently the oil control rings were still working, and if they experienced accelerated wear due to the longer oil changes, weren't yet worn enough to allow any significant oil to pass by. However, this isn't exactly apples to apples because the 6th gen ESh used a completely different engine than the 7th gen ESh. I'm hoping the only connection is Toyota/Lexus knowing how to effectively make an engine that frequently shuts off and starts back up but doesn't experience a significant increase in wear despite theoretically being "oil starved" due to that type of operation.

scubapr

Just posted on the "Initial Oil Change" thread. It gives an idea of a very neglected OCI.

losiglow

Good find. Notice the "Additional Maintenance Schedule" at 11:17, which prescribes "additional maintenance" at 7.5km intervals (roughly 5k miles) and the list at 11:38 of what they consider to be reasons for "additional maintenance" some of which include snow-melted roads, short trips, low speed driving or continuous high speed driving. In other words 90% OF DRIVERS

LeX2K

Exactly. Almost every car falls under the severe service schedule. 10K OCI is a marketing ploy nothing more.

Wilson2000

The old Toyota/Lexus OCI with 5w30 oil was 5K miles with severe service calling for 2.5K miles. I don't understand the marketing angle of extending this. Will people be more likely to buy a vehicle with a longer OCI? Not I, but I know I'm not an average buyer/owner.

I was surprised when Toyota extended to 10K because they had issues in the past with engine sludge (not good for marketing). Of course the victims of sludge rarely changed their oil, regardless of the recommended interval! I know because my step-dad was one of those careless owners.

My usage falls under the normal service schedule. I don't take short trips, and if I do, I make sure the vehicle is at operating temp before shutting down, don't do much stop and go, don't face extreme temps, don't tow, etc. However, I still think there is some benefit to sticking with the old 5K recommendation. I can do an oil change in 30 minutes and spend less than $50 on premium consumables (oil and filter), so I don't see an issue with doing it twice per year vs once. It might be overkill, but since it is cheap and easy, I'm good with it.

mikemu30

It's all about marketing low maintenance cars. Then they throw in "free maintenance" for X years which maybe equates to two or three oil changes and bunch of other needless nonsense.

Wilson2000

There is a lot of buzz right now about a new version of Valvoline oil, Restore and Protect, that looks to be advantageous for preventing ring landing deposits in newer engines and for cleaning ring landing deposits in older engines. This is particularly important product for the latest generation of engines utilizing low-tension piston rings. I found the best price at Walmart for 0w-20 and 5w-30. The 5w-30 is a lot more expensive than the 0w-20, I'm guessing because of supply/demand issues. Here's a couple of YT videos regarding the product:

Freds430

I have seen many ratings where Mobil 1 is the best rank synthetic oil. Any good brand synthetic oil is going to be fine. The most important thing is change it.
If someone can find it please show me a study where amsoil is three times better than mobil 1 based on price.

Wilson2000

The good news about Valvoline Restore and Protect...it's the same cost as Mobil 1. Mobile 1 didn't top the Project Farm testing, but in said testing, Pennzoil Ultra Platinum was on par with Amsoil, and it's 1/3 the price! So, I'm not a fan of either Mobile 1 or Amzoil.

UltraLux22

Look, I applaud your optimism in calling this a "friendly discussion," but let's be real – this oil change saga is about as friendly as a junkyard dog with a bone to pick and about as fresh as month-old milk. Ain't none of em ever been civil-> (very true) or overly productive->(that's not completely true), and we've all seen this movie. It's the same tired script: an innocent question, a viscous battle royale, digital exhaustion. The only revolutionary thing about it is how many times we can have the same conversation without actually saying anything new. If you're truly craving enlightenment on the topic, might I suggest a quick pilgrimage to the sacred texts of oil change threads? There are 500+ of them out there, each one overflowing with the same recycled arguments and lukewarm takes. Forgive my skepticism, but I'm not convinced the world is eagerly awaiting the 501st iteration of this debate. Have you considered a simple search? It might spare us all the reheated rhetoric and offer a few revolutionary revelations – like how to use the search function. And if you do find some groundbreaking revelation in those 500+ discussions, do share. Who knows, maybe the 501st time will be the charm. As for me, I've got no pooch in this fight – just a healthy aversion to déjà vu and the lingering smell of spilled motor oil. Oh, and did I mention I drive an EV? What am I even doing here? Oh, comic relief, you say? Ok, why not. You're Welcome!

Wilson2000

Go ahead and believe you know everything there is to know about the subject, but, there's no need to disparage those of us who crave knowledge and understanding on the topic.

It's obvious you didn't watch any of the YT videos I posted above. There is a renaissance of innovation in oil technology of late, and independent testing now allows people to have access to data like never before. In addition, modern engine designs are constantly innovating, chasing diminishing returns of efficiency and lower emissions, such as with direct injection and low-tension piston rings. These design changes have had multiple unintended, negative consequences that could possibly be mitigated by improvements in oil technology. This possibility intrigues CL members like myself enough to explore, research, ask questions, and work toward consensus. If this doesn't float your boat, move along--there's nothing to see here.

I have no interest in many threads on CL, but don't feel the need to criticize those who post them. I simply don't read or comment on them. I suggest you do the same.

UltraLux22

Alright, you got me. I haven't exactly been glued to your channel. YouTube and I are more about cat yoga and epic fails than engine oil analysis. (If I'm not tuned in, you can bet my cat is plotting my demise with an army of hairballs and a symphony of yowls demanding extra treats.) I'm no mechanic – the closest I get to an oil change is passing by Jiffy Lube on my way to Steak 'n Shake. So, if I missed some earth-shattering oil news in your videos, I'll own that.

But let's face it: "friendly" and "oil change debate" don't exactly go hand-in-hand. It's less rainbows and unicorns, more like... well, you know. These threads tend to go off the rails faster than a political debate, turning into a dumpster fire that requires Xanax, tequila, and Dramamine just to witness.

Past oil talk carnage has painted a grim picture, unfairly lumping you and your potential wisdom in with the chaos.

So, if you're claiming some oil revolution, I'm all ears. Color me doubtful, but hey, I love a good plot twist. Just remember, these threads often resemble Jerry Springer without the DNA tests (or was it Maury?). Some devolve into viscosity smackdowns, while others might actually offer a nugget of useful info.

Spread that oily gospel, my friend. Just don't be shocked if I'm over here in my quiet, oil-free electric car, sipping a latte and enjoying cat videos on my enormous video screen while you guys duke it out over viscosity. Speaking of which, did you say my first maintenance appointment isn't until 20,000 miles? Mind. Blown. 😉


Disclaimer: My posts like this one are usually a satirical, hyperbolic take on the obvious while attempting to maintain an objective, realistic viewpoint with clever wit and humor. I don't always hit the mark, but I usually do. You're welcome, and sorry you were the cannon fodder, but that's what happens when you post here. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and sometimes you slip on the oil patch and go splat! So mea culpa: I should rarely be taken seriously if I am of any offense. I'm just here for the likes!"

#OneLove





P.S. Yes, there’s more!

Criticism? Maybe, but let's be honest, pointing out the naivety of expecting total friendliness in this kind of thread is a bit like announcing water is wet; we've all seen how these things go: a few polite comments, then boom - it's a free-for-all of opinions. And while my own interest in engine oil ranks somewhere between watching paint dry and counting blades of grass, let's just say I have an undeniable urge to poke fun at the obvious, preferably with a dash of wit and a sprinkle of sarcasm, sue me. I mean, hey, we're all hypocrites sometimes, right? Who among us hasn't scrolled past a post, we found utterly ridiculous, only to leave a snarky comment anyway? It's the internet's version of rubbernecking at a car crash - we can't look away, even if we know it's not good for us. Speaking of debates! Ugh anyway... So, yeah, consider this my contribution to the digital pileup. I mean, have you seen my signature? Nuff Said!

(Disclaimer still applies)