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I was away on a business trip but just recently got back tonight and saw the Lexus ES reveal while on flight. I have to say - its much better than the outgoing Lexus ES.
I want to point out - the 7ES interior is better compared to the Lexus UX interior. If you look at the UX and ES, they both share more design ques versus the Lexus LS.
However - I'm happy with this Lexus ES reveal because I think it proves the Lexus GS will stay. I feel like the Lexus ES didn't upgrade enough compared to the outgoing Lexus ES to even come close to replacing the Lexus GS. The 7gen Lexus ES seems more like a bigger Lexus IS, in my opinion.
British Autocar is reporting that the ES is indeed going to the UK (therefore a global model) and it is also REPLACING the GS, due to be discontinued next month.
British Autocar is reporting that the ES is indeed going to the UK (therefore a global model) and it is also REPLACING the GS, due to be discontinued next month.
The Autocar and rumors has been reporting the Lexus GS is canceling since 2017. Its not 100% until Toyota says something.
However - if indeed the Lexus ES replaces the Lexus GS, even as big as a Toyota/Lexus fan I am, I will say Toyota/Lexus F'd up. This 7gen Lexus ES isn't good enough to replace the Lexus GS for a number of reasons. (Its a good car, just not good enough to replace the GS.) The easiest reason to go by is the power and only a FWD option: not only its a Camry/Avalon reskin - it doesn't even get a power difference compared to the Camry/Avalon. It shares the same powerplant and drive-train as the Camry/Avalon. That will leave luxury sedan buyers with a sour taste in their mouths. How do you convince a BMW/MB buyer to spend close to 55K loaded for a Lexus ES, which shares the same drive-train and powerplant as a Camry/Avalon? (Not trying to hate - I'm just being realistic)
I honestly think the 7th gen Lexus ES will never replace the GS. The GS will probably live on.
Sweet, sweet design! This will no doubt be one of Lexus's best selling sedans of all time. So much is right with the body shape and details. Just love the slick and modern rear lights, purposeful exhaust tips, supercar sideview mirrors, wheel designs, and interior for the non-F-Sport. The lighter wood is needed to brighten up the interior. F-Sport suffers from tiny front tires that expose too much inner wheel well lining. This will become more pronounced as those tires wear and become even smaller (current and past IS with staggered wheels have the same problem). Not sure about the standard gauge package. It looks like they are making a semi-F-Sport gauge package standard across the board. This may save some space, but it looks unbalanced with traditional needles on one side, and big display screens on the other. Horns ontop dash are still ugly and mare an otherwise graceful cockpit. Another nitpick is they ran a swath of faceless plastic along the lower, center part of the front console. This area should have been used for media, hvac buttons, or something, being it's within easiest reach of the driver's hand.
It is clear this ES is migrating to a sportier look, especially with the F-Sport option. I immediately thought what this will do for IS sales. Many are on the fence with the IS, and I see the new sporty ES stealing some sales away. This would especially be the case for future IS shoppers who are not the usual young hipsters or punks. (I still see a handful of mid-aged IS drivers.) The next IS must really do something special to position itself away from the ES. Lexus just created a new problem between the two models.
I'll be one of the few who will say I don't like the larger size. Doesn't fit my personal needs or driving habits, and the stretched rear window appears to be the only odd body proportion. But I can forgive them for making it bigger, as just about every new car grows in size and they seem to be wanting to push away the GS a little more every few months.
Can't wait to see more of this ES. It's a fantastic design inside and out. Would any of us have ever thought we'd be saying "Ultrasonic Mica and ES" in the same sentence? Not since the days of Aquamarine ES's (look it up)!
The GS could live on as a 4-door coupe sibling of the LS. Carmakers move models into new segments all the time - BMW turned the 5-series GT into the new 6-series while the old 6 coupes will be replaced by the 8-series.
The sad truth is that the GS doesn't sell at all compared to the 5-series, let alone the ES. The enthusiast market for large sedans is dwindling with most buyers switching to SUVs. The 5-series itself is more executive transport than ultimate driving machine now, especially in stretched 5iL form. Killing the old GS might not be popular with enthusiasts but Lexus management could do it without losing much sleep.
That said, why are they keeping the RC when that doesn't sell well either? I have a feeling that model could get axed soon and it'll be crossovers for most of the Lexus lineup, the ES as the volume seller sedan and the LS/LC as the halo cars.
It shares the same powerplant and drive-train as the Camry/Avalon. That will leave luxury sedan buyers with a sour taste in their mouths. How do you convince a BMW/MB buyer to spend close to 55K loaded for a Lexus ES, which shares the same drive-train and powerplant as a Camry/Avalon? (Not trying to hate - I'm just being realistic
Realistically speaking, outfit that same 2GR-FE with a supercharger and you have the heart of the Lotus Evora. A ridiculously sexy car with 400hp that no owner begrudges for sharing the same power plant as the Camry/Avalon.
(let alone the broad critical acclaim from the auto press)
Sweet, sweet design! This will no doubt be one of Lexus's best selling sedans of all time. So much is right with the body shape and details. Just love the slick and modern rear lights, purposeful exhaust tips, supercar sideview mirrors, wheel designs, and interior for the non-F-Sport. The lighter wood is needed to brighten up the interior. F-Sport suffers from tiny front tires that expose too much inner wheel well lining. This will become more pronounced as those tires wear and become even smaller (current and past IS with staggered wheels have the same problem). Not sure about the standard gauge package. It looks like they are making a semi-F-Sport gauge package standard across the board. This may save some space, but it looks unbalanced with traditional needles on one side, and big display screens on the other. Horns ontop dash are still ugly and mare an otherwise graceful cockpit. Another nitpick is they ran a swath of faceless plastic along the lower, center part of the front console. This area should have been used for media, hvac buttons, or something, being it's within easiest reach of the driver's hand.
It is clear this ES is migrating to a sportier look, especially with the F-Sport option. I immediately thought what this will do for IS sales. Many are on the fence with the IS, and I see the new sporty ES stealing some sales away. This would especially be the case for future IS shoppers who are not the usual young hipsters or punks. (I still see a handful of mid-aged IS drivers.) The next IS must really do something special to position itself away from the ES. Lexus just created a new problem between the two models.
I'll be one of the few who will say I don't like the larger size. Doesn't fit my personal needs or driving habits, and the stretched rear window appears to be the only odd body proportion. But I can forgive them for making it bigger, as just about every new car grows in size and they seem to be wanting to push away the GS a little more every few months.
Can't wait to see more of this ES. It's a fantastic design inside and out. Would any of us have ever thought we'd be saying "Ultrasonic Mica and ES" in the same sentence? Not since the days of Aquamarine ES's (look it up)!
The thing is the Lexus IS and ES are two dramatically different cars and target two different type of people. The Lexus IS are younger buyers and the Lexus ES are older buyers. The Lexus IS is a much smaller RWD sedan while the Lexus ES is a larger FWD sedan. The problem is: the Lexus ES will never drive or handle sporty, so as long as the FWD is keeping it down. While I do understand FWD cars can be built or set up to handle well, I don't believe the 7G F-Sport Lexus ES is. The Lexus ES F-Sport will probably, at most, handle slightly better than its sisters - the Camry/Avalon.
Lexus IS buyers will probably not cross-shop into the Lexus ES. Similarity - Lexus GS shoppers will not cross-shop into the Lexus ES.
Originally Posted by amphiprion
Realistically speaking, outfit that same 2GR-FE with a supercharger and you have the heart of the Lotus Evora. A ridiculously sexy car with 400hp that no owner begrudges for sharing the same power plant as the Camry/Avalon.
(let alone the broad critical acclaim from the auto press)
You are comparing apples to oranges though. The 2GR in the Lotus is not the same 2GR in the Camry/Avalon/ES. While the base engine is the same, its not truly the same. One is supercharged (modified) - one is not. The Camry/Avalon/ES engine is literally the same besides that 1HP difference in the 7G ES. If you supercharged the Camry/Avalon engine and put it in the Lexus ES, offered AWD, and I would not speak a word about the Camry/Avlaon engine similarity because it wouldn't be the same anymore.
I bet you - if the Lotus Evora engine was a Standard V6 301 HP Camry engine, people would complain.
Note: You can realistically make any engine "good" by supercharging it. Just like how the Aerial Atom uses a Supercharged K-Series Honda engine (Accord/Civic engine).
The problem here is: the Lexus ES can't replace the GS because it lacks RWD and power. It also lacks the prestige - for sharing too much with the Camry/Avalon.
While I think the 7Gen Lexus ES is great, I do not think it can replace the Lexus GS.
The thing is the Lexus IS and ES are two dramatically different cars and target two different type of people. The Lexus IS are younger buyers and the Lexus ES are older buyers. The Lexus IS is a much smaller RWD sedan while the Lexus ES is a larger FWD sedan. The problem is: the Lexus ES will never drive or handle sporty, so as long as the FWD is keeping it down. While I do understand FWD cars can be built or set up to handle well, I don't believe the 7G F-Sport Lexus ES is. The Lexus ES F-Sport will probably, at most, handle slightly better than its sisters - the Camry/Avalon.
Lexus IS buyers will probably not cross-shop into the Lexus ES. Similarity - Lexus GS shoppers will not cross-shop into the Lexus ES.
The ES and IS are indeed two entirely differently types, we all know and agree with that. People will not go out of their way to cross-shop them. But something is going to happen when the new ES and old IS are parked side by side in a showroom. While it's not going to be a big percentage, some are going to cross-over and go for the flashier, more modern ES. Many new car customers are not into the driving experience, nor enthusiasts, but base their buying decision on emotion and/or style (standard V6 and similar lease package will help further). To my eye at least, the new ES has more eye-candy than the current IS.
Note: You can realistically make any engine "good" by supercharging it. Just like how the Aerial Atom uses a Supercharged K-Series Honda engine (Accord/Civic engine).
The problem here is: the Lexus ES can't replace the GS because it lacks RWD and power. It also lacks the prestige - for sharing too much with the Camry/Avalon.
While I think the 7Gen Lexus ES is great, I do not think it can replace the Lexus GS.
I think you miss the point which Is to counter your claim that people will not pay 55k for an ES because it shares the same engine as a Camry.
I don't know yet if the 7ES is a great car or that it should replace the GS. But I do know that Lexus is essentially in (what is traditionally) two market areas with three different cars. If they do decide in ending the GS line, it is obvious that they will have to move up the IS and ES which would allow justifying a higher top end price for both, filling in the content gap left by the GS. That content may involve added trim levels, drive train options, etc. But it would be a perfectly reasonable move, even with the "same old" engine under the hood.
And- they didn't need to make the 2GR good by supercharging it, they chose a good engine to begin with to modify
Very nice. But I'm quite happy with my 2015 and will hope it lasts 10 years. Maybe by then theyll be on 8th or 9th gen es lol
Well I cannot resist the Apple CarPlay feature. Does the Pioneer device setup where they add the Apple CarPlay $ 250 player works as well? Or is it better to be inside the Lexus Apple CarPlay system rather than an add-on.
I think you miss the point which Is to counter your claim that people will not pay 55k for an ES because it shares the same engine as a Camry.
I don't know yet if the 7ES is a great car or that it should replace the GS. But I do know that Lexus is essentially in (what is traditionally) two market areas with three different cars. If they do decide in ending the GS line, it is obvious that they will have to move up the IS and ES which would allow justifying a higher top end price for both, filling in the content gap left by the GS. That content may involve added trim levels, drive train options, etc. But it would be a perfectly reasonable move, even with the "same old" engine under the hood.
And- they didn't need to make the 2GR good by supercharging it, they chose a good engine to begin with to modify
I don't think the traditional buyers of IS and ES will pay for a much more expensive version nor will the GS buyer willing to go for a FWD ES or decked out IS. The GS buyers may go for the LS or some other brand., IMO.
The ES and IS are indeed two entirely differently types, we all know and agree with that. People will not go out of their way to cross-shop them. But something is going to happen when the new ES and old IS are parked side by side in a showroom. While it's not going to be a big percentage, some are going to cross-over and go for the flashier, more modern ES. Many new car customers are not into the driving experience, nor enthusiasts, but base their buying decision on emotion and/or style (standard V6 and similar lease package will help further). To my eye at least, the new ES has more eye-candy than the current IS.
I understand where you are getting at. You are saying that if the Lexus IS and ES were parked next to each other, a buyer that doesn't care about "driving-experience" would buy the Lexus ES. That would be realistically true if the Lexus IS and ES were the same price. However - they aren't. Some IS buyers may not want to pay more money for what essentially is a re-skin Camry.
Secondly - the ES is suppose to be more "eye-candy" than the IS. Even if they were to redesign the Lexus IS now - the Lexus ES will still be more flashy because its the more expensive model. Lexus will make sure the ES will still be on top of the IS regardless.
Originally Posted by amphiprion
I think you miss the point which Is to counter your claim that people will not pay 55k for an ES because it shares the same engine as a Camry.
I don't know yet if the 7ES is a great car or that it should replace the GS. But I do know that Lexus is essentially in (what is traditionally) two market areas with three different cars. If they do decide in ending the GS line, it is obvious that they will have to move up the IS and ES which would allow justifying a higher top end price for both, filling in the content gap left by the GS. That content may involve added trim levels, drive train options, etc. But it would be a perfectly reasonable move, even with the "same old" engine under the hood.
And- they didn't need to make the 2GR good by supercharging it, they chose a good engine to begin with to modify
No no. I get what you are saying. You are saying that the Lotus has a Camry engine and people think its great and it sells. Therefore - a Lexus ES with a Camry engine isn't a bad thing.
My point was: the Lotus engine is not the same as the Camry engine. You can't say the Supercharged 2GR is the same as the 301HP V6 in the Camry. One is modified, one is not.
If the Lexus ES had a Turbo-Charged 2GR, I would not be calling it a Camry engine. I would be praising it. When you slap a Turbo or SC onto a engine, its not the same engine anymore.
Secondly - I didn't say no one would buy it. I didn't mean it that way. People clearly do buy the Lexus ES - it sells really well. Heck, 6G ES sold insanely well, for having a Camry/Avalon engine too. I'm saying there are some people that will never buy the Lexus ES because its a Camry/Avalon reskin with a Camry/Avalon engine/drive-train. Its basically a Camry/Avalon in a suit.
IE: For example, I think the Lexus ES is a great car. Would I buy it? No. I would not buy a Lexus ES because I care about driving dynamics and I would never pay 55K for a Camry/Avalon in a suit. However - someone who isn't a car enthusiasts or someone who just doesn't care, they'll buy it. <--- Lexus ES targets these people.
Originally Posted by sam430
I don't think the traditional buyers of IS and ES will pay for a much more expensive version nor will the GS buyer willing to go for a FWD ES or decked out IS. The GS buyers may go for the LS or some other brand., IMO.
This is similar to my thinking. I don't think Lexus IS buyers will opt for the ES. And I think GS buyers will never go for a FWD ES. Its likely GS buyers will (if rich enough) buy a LS or jump brands. This new Lexus ES is not a replacement for the Lexus GS.
Originally Posted by pman6
The ES could never be priced into GS, E, 5 territory. It would lose a ton of sales.
Just like no one buys an Acura RLX.
That backseat floor hump looks large for a FWD.
Good catch! I didn't know it has a floor hump in the backseat.
Traditionally - FWD cars don't have a floor hump. I'm worried Lexus is trying to make this car appear "sporty" rather than actually making it drive-well.
04-24-18, 10:50 PM
