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I disagree with the term "Baby LS". I will never call the Lexus ES a baby LS simply because the Lexus ES is basically a Camry/Avalon. The Lexus ES only carries a little bit of exterior design cues from the Lexus LS and that's it. The interior seems more Lexus UX like, the platform is Camry/Avalon, the engine is Camry/Avalon, and the drive-train is Camry/Avalon. As much as I love the Lexus ES, this is no baby LS. If the new Lexus GS comes with similar design cues as the LS with a detuned TTV6, that would be the baby LS.
The Infiniti Q60 RS is more of a baby GTR than the Lexus ES is a baby LS.
I disagree. Carplay will not make a car more "relevant" for 10-12 years. A vehicle having Carplay doesn't make it anymore modern than a car without it. Its not a deal-breaker on luxury vehicles. IE: Why would a BMW owner use Carplay over iDrive? Why would an Audi owner use Carplay over MMI/Virtual Cockpit? The iDrive/MMI system is 100 times better than the basic Carplay system.
Also - who's to say Carplay will still be around in another decade. Who's to say even Apple iPhone/Andriods Phones will be around either? The tech scene changes everyday. In a decade, there can be another "it" tech item.
You sure know the Camry/Avalon footprints on the ES and respect why you would not call it a baby ES. For some, the looks alone is good enough even though under the skin it's not the same.
It's a mad SUV world we live in today and re-inventing the sedan market is not Toyota's job. Achieving a baby sporting LS as a detuned TTV6 derivative of LS would imply the car isnt good enough and stuck in the ES and LS purgatory. One look at the KIA Stinger shows the possible roadmap for what a new GS could look like and evolve as a competitor. Does Lexus need a 'sport luxury' car option when sport flavor is already in the IS and RC series. First and foremost, Lexus is a luxury brand with sporting aftertastes, not the other way around. The ES line up getting the F-sport touch will never truly satisfy the sports car purists no matter how much it is dressed up. The redesign for a more fun and responsive to drive is a bigger leap forward on the GS turf, and different than the ES generations before it.
Both Audi and BMW have been way ahead of the curve on navigation and multi-media integration and agree there. The premium options allow them to do this to create the extra value to the car buyer (doing something different). It was a huge differentiating factor back around 2010. Lexus Navigation in a LS430 was a huge deal before the smartphones came out. 15 years later, it looks outdated and the low resolution screens are out of favor.
If Lexus is currently the worst experience for navigation/multimedia -- the least they can do is give the driver CarPlay (and eventually AndroidPlay) capability and allow the Millennials, Gen Z, and savvy smartphone users an alternative experience for a better maps or connectivity to stuff on their phones. For example, if it takes 3 minutes to define a map destination in car navigation system... and you can do it in 10 seconds via smartphone, the car navi system becomes a real hindrance or inconvenience to a luxury experience. Smartphones will continue to be relevant in the next 10 years because it is an extension of our lifestyle and how we are connected to this world. Tech scene is always changing and underlying it all is a solid foundation that is emerging to make tech devices more seamlessly integrated. It shapes the 'luxury experience' we all are buying into.
I am dropping the LS500 and will wait 5 months for the Es instead.
1) the mechanical ride of the ES is much better than the new nervous LS500 air ride at low speeds. It is an honest ride without overriding high frequency roads
2) they are not discounting the LS, and they have a huge delivery problem, for two months I waited for the LS500 and non came in in silver colors, none in 3 dealerships
3)the ES has Apple CarPlay and I am an Apple lover 100%. I have 3 iPads, one in each bathroom, a large iMac, my old iMac also, the X, the pods, the HomePod, a second display for the iMac, and now I cannot resist the Apple CarPlay. No way I can resist it. After 28 years of LS with excellent rides they managed to over engineer the air ride and it feels like the car is shaking all the time, like vibrating nervously like a violinist holding on too tight.
4) the ES looks just as cute as the LS now. And it does not have all of fake artsy fake touches that right panel on the LS500 it is an offense, just a painting, it is not live for the passenger, if I had a driver I'd be in front, I'm not dead yet in back
I cant see ES being anywhere as good as LS though... but why not, it is your money .
it will have 360 camera, as to the pano none of the pics showed it, but they also did not show many things so far... as usual they like to space things out.
i know Bmw M760 also has that birds eye type camera
curious how do they do that? I know there are camera in back and front. Are there roof mounted elevated cameras ?
I am dropping the LS500 and will wait 5 months for the Es instead.
1) the mechanical ride of the ES is much better than the new nervous LS500 air ride at low speeds. It is an honest ride without overriding high frequency roads
2) they are not discounting the LS, and they have a huge delivery problem, for two months I waited for the LS500 and non came in in silver colors, none in 3 dealerships 3)the ES has Apple CarPlay and I am an Apple lover 100%. I have 3 iPads, one in each bathroom, a large iMac, my old iMac also, the X, the pods, the HomePod, a second display for the iMac, and now I cannot resist the Apple CarPlay. No way I can resist it. After 28 years of LS with excellent rides they managed to over engineer the air ride and it feels like the car is shaking all the time, like vibrating nervously like a violinist holding on too tight.
4) the ES looks just as cute as the LS now. And it does not have all of fake artsy fake touches that right panel on the LS500 it is an offense, just a painting, it is not live for the passenger, if I had a driver I'd be in front, I'm not dead yet in back
Bingo. Here's a lost sale to a LS500 in favor of a ES350. Yes, CarPlay is a game changer. It gives incentive of previous ES owners to consider to upgrade, or here in this case, cause a LS downgrade (or order shift/cancellation/trade in current LS) to something newer. It's not about which car is better on the specs (eg 0-60 times, hp) but the buyer/owner experience they seek. Apple lovers are out there in the hundreds of millions, and globally.
But what about the image below? It looks like only the F-sport ES350 trim will get the tailpipes and the one below is not (regardless of what the license plate says).
ES350 has the tail pipes. ES300h and ES260 (China) do not have tail pipes. I believe this picture you posted is the ES260.
i know Bmw M760 also has that birds eye type camera
curious how do they do that? I know there are camera in back and front. Are there roof mounted elevated cameras ?
There are 4 cameras. In addition to the wide-angle backup camera, there is a wide-angle camera in the nose and wide-angle cameras in each of the side mirrors. Software then stitches together the 4 different images into a single image and inserting a fake picture of the car in the centre to give a top-down, bird's-eye view.
Wtf! Has this been confirmed? Even my 3rd Gen GS has full LED turn signal clusters (thanks to E-bay )
When the Honda CRV and a few Kia products feature full LED clusters on their models, I think it’s appalling for a Luxury badge to lack it!
Nope. Its not been confirmed. But if you take a look at the release pictures or in person shots taken by uploaders, the tail lights doesn't look like it has LED blinkers. The housing just doesn't look like a LED blinker housing or shape - the housing looks similar to the pre-facelift Lexus IS rear turn signal housing. I could be mistaken though.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Lexus ES is missing some features that is otherwise on the Camry/Avalon. Toyota wants to keep this car price low. Many car magazine journalist are predicting the car to stay below 40K starting.
Originally Posted by RNM GS3
Lexus continues to take the easy (cheap) way to maximize profits.
Instead of this propped up FWD Camry in a suit, they could have introduced a segment leading midsize executive sedan to go head to head with Volvo S90, Genesis G80, A6, Eclass and 5series.
It should have been RWD based with turbo 4,6, and 8 cyl engines mated to a 10speed trans. Ride would focus on luxury but can allow for sporty driving when needed. Interior would have the Best in class materials and best in class rear space. It would deliver value for the $$$. That would be a GREAT ES and get me excited for Lexus comeback to past glory - this is meh.
Then GS could be the 4door coupe like CLS, A7, GranCoupe.
Why is this so hard to do Lexus??? Just make the investment and go all out.
RNM. I don't agree with you often but I do agree with you here.
This Lexus ES is created to make money and it will sell like hotcakes to the general public. For me - I can't seem to stomach paying upwards of 55K (possible price for a loaded 7G ES) for a Camry/Avalon in a suit.
Originally Posted by spwolf
it will have 360 camera, as to the pano none of the pics showed it, but they also did not show many things so far... as usual they like to space things out.
I think it'll pretty much have everything the Avalon/Camry has but does things a little bit better.
You can expect HUD, 360 Camera, and majority of the things on the Avalon/Camry. However - I wouldn't hold my breath and expect something groundbreaking and revolutionary. Because if the 7G Lexus ES did have something amazing to share, Lexus would have showed it off at Beijing to draw up more hype. You can expect anything new tech to be released from here on out to be pretty standard stuff that already exist.
Originally Posted by theory816
Why would you get an LS if the ES looks that good for half the price?
Because you are literally paying premium price for a dressed up Camry/Avalon. The LS is about 10 folds better than the ES.
The Lexus ES is a good car. But its not Lexus LS good.
Originally Posted by All4Lexus
You sure know the Camry/Avalon footprints on the ES and respect why you would not call it a baby ES. For some, the looks alone is good enough even though under the skin it's not the same.
It's a mad SUV world we live in today and re-inventing the sedan market is not Toyota's job. Achieving a baby sporting LS as a detuned TTV6 derivative of LS would imply the car isnt good enough and stuck in the ES and LS purgatory. One look at the KIA Stinger shows the possible roadmap for what a new GS could look like and evolve as a competitor. Does Lexus need a 'sport luxury' car option when sport flavor is already in the IS and RC series. First and foremost, Lexus is a luxury brand with sporting aftertastes, not the other way around. The ES line up getting the F-sport touch will never truly satisfy the sports car purists no matter how much it is dressed up. The redesign for a more fun and responsive to drive is a bigger leap forward on the GS turf, and different than the ES generations before it.
Both Audi and BMW have been way ahead of the curve on navigation and multi-media integration and agree there. The premium options allow them to do this to create the extra value to the car buyer (doing something different). It was a huge differentiating factor back around 2010. Lexus Navigation in a LS430 was a huge deal before the smartphones came out. 15 years later, it looks outdated and the low resolution screens are out of favor.
If Lexus is currently the worst experience for navigation/multimedia -- the least they can do is give the driver CarPlay (and eventually AndroidPlay) capability and allow the Millennials, Gen Z, and savvy smartphone users an alternative experience for a better maps or connectivity to stuff on their phones. For example, if it takes 3 minutes to define a map destination in car navigation system... and you can do it in 10 seconds via smartphone, the car navi system becomes a real hindrance or inconvenience to a luxury experience. Smartphones will continue to be relevant in the next 10 years because it is an extension of our lifestyle and how we are connected to this world. Tech scene is always changing and underlying it all is a solid foundation that is emerging to make tech devices more seamlessly integrated. It shapes the 'luxury experience' we all are buying into.
Whether its good or not to have a TTV6 GS is debatable in this market. That wasn't my point though. My point is that a baby LS will share a lot of similarities to the Lexus LS and the Lexus ES isn't that vehicle. IE: A baby LS will likely have shared design cues, similar features (but less), same engine (but detuned), shared platform, shared drive-train and etc... This is why the Lexus ES can not be a baby LS. They aren't similar at all.
Calling a Lexus ES a baby LS is no different than calling a Toyota Camry/Avalon a baby LS because the Lexus ES is basically a dressed up Camry/Avalon.
Sure - Lexus' infotainment system isn't good compared to say iDrive. But is the Lexus infotainment system better than Carplay? I would say yes it is. The Apple Carplay forces you to use Apple Maps. The Lexus basic navigation maps with free weather/traffic from HD radio is 10 times better than that Apple Maps garbage. Carplay is only good when you opt for a no navigation package other than that - the standard Lexus infotainment system is 10x better than Apple Carplay.
What? How does it take 3 minutes to set up a navigation route on a car navigation? It takes me the same amount of time as on my smartphone. The first day I purchased my 18 Lexus IS - I had no idea how to use my navigation but I set up an address in less than 20 seconds to drive home.
You can't say smartphones will be relevant in 10 years because you just don't know. A decade is a lot of time. And things change. Trends change. I lived through pagers, nokia brick phones, flip phones, side-kicks, old fat smartphones and current newly thin smartphones. Things come and go. Brands come and go. In 10 years, smartphones (Apple/Android) has a chance of not existing anymore. Who's to say a new company won't dethrone them? That's just proof that Carplay won't make a car more relevant in 10 years.
Why would you get an LS if the ES looks that good for half the price?
Lots of reasons, higher quality interior, better seats, more comfort features, better engine, more power, more refinement and build quality, better handling, RWD/AWD layout. List goes on.
I don’t know about you, but I hate having a car that is popular. Once the 7ES hits dealers you can guarantee you’ll see them everywhere you go. There won’t be any escaping every time you get on the highway your going to see 10-20 of these a day on your morning commute especially if you live in Urban California or Florida. The 5LS is far more exclusive and the interior is nearly third to none except for maybe the S-Class or Bentley Flying Spur. The ES is a nice luxury car for the masses, as long as your not looking for exclusivity. If you are, you better look else where because the ES is going to be everywhere.
I don’t know about you, but I hate having a car that is popular. Once the 7ES hits dealers you can guarantee you’ll see them everywhere you go. There won’t be any escaping every time you get on the highway your going to see 10-20 of these a day on your morning commute especially if you live in Urban California or Florida. The 5LS is far more exclusive and the interior is nearly third to none except for maybe the S-Class or Bentley Flying Spur. The ES is a nice luxury car for the masses, as long as your not looking for exclusivity. If you are, you better look else where because the ES is going to be everywhere.
Very well said. So to answer the original question, you get the ES if you want an LS-esque experience but none of the fine details. And I totally agree - part of why I have an IS and not a 3-series is that 3-series is pretty much dime-a-dozen where I live.
Very well said. So to answer the original question, you get the ES if you want an LS-esque experience but none of the fine details. And I totally agree - part of why I have an IS and not a 3-series is that 3-series is pretty much dime-a-dozen where I live.
+1 On the 3 Series comment.
3 Series is everywhere in the dense Bay Area. On my commute to the office everyday - I see tons and tons of 3 Series. Mostly stripper or minimally packaged 3 Series though.
EDIT: I can literally see a few from my window right now while I'm eating lunch.
04-25-18, 11:54 AM
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