All-new 2019 Lexus ES to debut at Beijing Motorshow
04-25-18, 07:31 PM
#572
Lexus Champion
Then you don't want to see stripper 5-series diesels in Europe with manual transmissions and cloth seats... Company rep specials, they call them.
I guess I'll have to ignore all the "Camry in a fancy frock" comments coming from people who have never owned a Camry, Avalon or an ES. If they did, they would know those cars share similar mechanicals but the driving experience is totally different.
Not going to bother defending the ES for what it is either, I'm happy with mine and Lexus are happy with the sales figure too. There's nothing wrong with badge engineering when it produces good cars - see how the Opel Insignia became the Buick Regal, for example.
As for the exterior design, the profile view looks much more like an Avalon than the 6ES. The hood line seems lower and the body-colored lip on top of the grille is still there. The roof line at the rear is higher and the Bangled rear deck lid is more angled, looking more like a hatchback, probably to increase rear headroom. The 6ES has a smoother, flowing shape in profile but the 7ES looks better from the front.
I guess I'll have to ignore all the "Camry in a fancy frock" comments coming from people who have never owned a Camry, Avalon or an ES. If they did, they would know those cars share similar mechanicals but the driving experience is totally different.
Not going to bother defending the ES for what it is either, I'm happy with mine and Lexus are happy with the sales figure too. There's nothing wrong with badge engineering when it produces good cars - see how the Opel Insignia became the Buick Regal, for example.
As for the exterior design, the profile view looks much more like an Avalon than the 6ES. The hood line seems lower and the body-colored lip on top of the grille is still there. The roof line at the rear is higher and the Bangled rear deck lid is more angled, looking more like a hatchback, probably to increase rear headroom. The 6ES has a smoother, flowing shape in profile but the 7ES looks better from the front.
Here is the 2018 Camry:
Now, tell me which is the badge-engineered car.
This...
or this...
I am happy with my ESh also. No one looks upon the ES as just a re-skinned Camry; I am always complimented for driving a Lexus.
Someone came up to me yesterday and asked if I was the driver of the Lexus in the parking lot (I am a new employee at that company). He started talking about looking for an ES Hybrid. At one point I thought that he was going to offer to buy my car! It turns out that he went shopping, found the prices of used ES too expensive so decided to spend a bit more and splurged on a new 2018 ES. He was ecstatic about and it seems so is his wife.
04-25-18, 07:33 PM
#573
Advanced
The F-sport ES will lure some potential GS buyers and the remaining number is so small it is really not worth going after.
04-25-18, 07:37 PM
#574
Lexus Test Driver
The ES hybrid is quite a gem, especially when I can get 45 mpg on my urban commute. The new model should be able to hit 50 mpg easily with some smart driving.
An ES wagon would be nice but that's like asking for flight-capable porcines. But if Volvo can make a pretty V90 along with the S90, Lexus should also give a wagon a try.
An ES wagon would be nice but that's like asking for flight-capable porcines. But if Volvo can make a pretty V90 along with the S90, Lexus should also give a wagon a try.
04-25-18, 08:32 PM
#575
I have no xstal ball, but I suspect GS will live, because reskinning Toyota Crown like the E Class/CLS or 5 Series/6 Series or even A6/A7 - doesn't cost much to produce, yet GS delivers quality to enthusiasts, and GS sells in much greater volume than the CLS/6 Series/A7 4 door Gran Coupes/Fastbacks.
ES oversold GS, mainly because ES is cheaper.
If both ES & GS were the same price, don't be surprized if GS actually oversells ES!
.
F-sport trim is not designed to fix the handling issue. It is designed to fix the sales numbers. In 2017 the ES (offered in just two trims) oversold the GS (offered in 5 trims) 7:1.
The F-sport ES will lure some potential GS buyers and the remaining number is so small it is really not worth going after.
The F-sport ES will lure some potential GS buyers and the remaining number is so small it is really not worth going after.
If both ES & GS were the same price, don't be surprized if GS actually oversells ES!
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 04-25-18 at 08:46 PM.
04-25-18, 08:36 PM
#576
Pole Position
I am also a owner of 14 ESh, has 59000 miles so far. Absolutely love the car, it is quite, reliable and efficient (I average around 35 MPG). Just got Brand new tires put on two days ago. I also own 08 Highlander and a 11 Camry, 07 CR-V, out of all three of these, the ES has the best Seat, Build quality and cabin. So, I disagree with others opinion that ES is just a dressed up Avalon or Camry. There is a huge difference in Quality and how the cabin is constructed in a Lexus.
04-25-18, 08:37 PM
#577
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
04-25-18, 08:55 PM
#580
Lexus Fanatic
If they were going to drop the GS, they would have had an AWD option on the ES
04-25-18, 10:14 PM
#582
Lexus Test Driver
I'm not going crazy, right? Based on these rear shots of the Lexus ES. It looks like the Triple Beam LED headlights on the Lexus ES doesn't offer rear LED turn signals. Those rear turn signal housings don't look like LED turn signals.
If its the case that Lexus ES doesn't carry LED turn signals, it would be pretty strange considering the Camry/Avalon has it. However - I wouldn't be surprised if there a few things missing on the ES that the Camry/Avalon has in order to make ES prices low. Rumor has it that Toyota/Lexus doesn't want the Lexus ES starting over 40K. Tons of car magazines are reporting it will start shy of 40K in the 39K. If the price is any indication, the Lexus ES will probably come with what is pretty much shown at Beijing.
It was designed to fix sales? No. The Lexus ES didn't need any fixing towards sale. It was a sale monster. Lexus could have did the minimal on the 7G Lexus ES and it'll sell like hotcakes. The thing is: Toyota is playing conservative with the Lexus ES because they want it to keep selling. How do you make it keep selling? By not changing too much or the original formula.
I disagree. The F-Sport ES will not lure any GS buyers. The F-Sport package is a all cosmetic package. Its similar to the MB's "AMG Line" package, BMW's "M Sport Design" package and Audi's "Black Optics" package. It just pretty much makes the car look sporty. The F-Sport package alone isn't enough to lure GS buyers towards a Lexus ES which comes in FWD and based of a Camry/Avalon. If the Lexus ES wanted GS buyers, it would have at least needed to offer a AWD option and a TTV6 option.
Agreed. The Lexus GS is likely alive and will have major changes coming.
Agreed again. If the Lexus ES and GS were the same price and offered similar things, the GS will outsell the ES for sure.
Again - RNM, I don't agree with you much but I agree with you here. A no AWD option ES is a sign that the GS lives on.
A GS with LC styling and TTV6 wouldn't be a bad idea either. I would rather the GS look more like the LS and offer the TTV6.
We'll see what Lexus does.
If its the case that Lexus ES doesn't carry LED turn signals, it would be pretty strange considering the Camry/Avalon has it. However - I wouldn't be surprised if there a few things missing on the ES that the Camry/Avalon has in order to make ES prices low. Rumor has it that Toyota/Lexus doesn't want the Lexus ES starting over 40K. Tons of car magazines are reporting it will start shy of 40K in the 39K. If the price is any indication, the Lexus ES will probably come with what is pretty much shown at Beijing.
F-sport trim is not designed to fix the handling issue. It is designed to fix the sales numbers. In 2017 the ES (offered in just two trims) oversold the GS (offered in 5 trims) 7:1.
The F-sport ES will lure some potential GS buyers and the remaining number is so small it is really not worth going after.
The F-sport ES will lure some potential GS buyers and the remaining number is so small it is really not worth going after.
I disagree. The F-Sport ES will not lure any GS buyers. The F-Sport package is a all cosmetic package. Its similar to the MB's "AMG Line" package, BMW's "M Sport Design" package and Audi's "Black Optics" package. It just pretty much makes the car look sporty. The F-Sport package alone isn't enough to lure GS buyers towards a Lexus ES which comes in FWD and based of a Camry/Avalon. If the Lexus ES wanted GS buyers, it would have at least needed to offer a AWD option and a TTV6 option.
I have no xstal ball, but I suspect GS will live, because reskinning Toyota Crown like the E Class/CLS or 5 Series/6 Series or even A6/A7 - doesn't cost much to produce, yet GS delivers quality to enthusiasts, and GS sells in much greater volume than the CLS/6 Series/A7 4 door Gran Coupes/Fastbacks.
ES oversold GS, mainly because ES is cheaper.
If both ES & GS were the same price, don't be surprized if GS actually oversells ES!
.
ES oversold GS, mainly because ES is cheaper.
If both ES & GS were the same price, don't be surprized if GS actually oversells ES!
.
Agreed again. If the Lexus ES and GS were the same price and offered similar things, the GS will outsell the ES for sure.
A GS with LC styling and TTV6 wouldn't be a bad idea either. I would rather the GS look more like the LS and offer the TTV6.
We'll see what Lexus does.
04-26-18, 12:08 AM
#583
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Agreed. I thought Lexus would’ve followed Audi, Mercedes and BMW into the 4dr coupe territory years ago. But to this day, Toyota/Lexus has no sexy 4dr coupe that competes with the A7, CLS or 6 series gran coupe. The GS would’ve been perfect to transition into that market. I’m hoping that Lexus may surprise us but I fear it won’t happen.
Btw, the 4th gen GS had lack luster styling which contributed to its lower sales. The GS was suppose to be Lexus’ emotion/style/performance sedan.
From a car enthusiast point of view, we all get why the ES cannot be a true replacement for the GS (handling, driving dynamics, RWD vs FWD) but in layman terms, there's no denying in the increased price point. You could argue that "mainstream" customers will not care about it being FWD, but what about the quality of the materials? The comfort of the GS should definitely trump the ES. The GS ($46k) in the U.S is 8k more expensive than the ES ($39k) and in Europe, the difference is even wider, the IS starts at €36k and the GS at €53k (Spanish prices). The LS in Spain is €112k and $75k in the US, there needs to be a model in between to capture that spectrum of willingness to pay.
I still think that the ES cannot compete in the same E class and 5 Series segment in equal terms. Sure, the ES has certainly being upgraded but it still has the "Camry" or Toyota stigma, a very powerful and established name while the GS has its own brand equity. I see Lexus repositioning the GS as a for door coupe a la CLS Class or A7. Make no mistake, the GS is no SC, the GS has years of experience and it is a well developed brand in the world, it's harder to elevate the ES brand vis a vis GS when you can still leverage the GS
04-26-18, 12:11 AM
#584
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Lexus continues to take the easy (cheap) way to maximize profits.
Instead of this propped up FWD Camry in a suit, they could have introduced a segment leading midsize executive sedan to go head to head with Volvo S90, Genesis G80, A6, Eclass and 5series.
It should have been RWD based with turbo 4,6, and 8 cyl engines mated to a 10speed trans. Ride would focus on luxury but can allow for sporty driving when needed. Interior would have the Best in class materials and best in class rear space. It would deliver value for the $$$. That would be a GREAT ES and get me excited for Lexus comeback to past glory - this is meh.
Then GS could be the 4door coupe like CLS, A7, GranCoupe.
Why is this so hard to do Lexus??? Just make the investment and go all out.
Instead of this propped up FWD Camry in a suit, they could have introduced a segment leading midsize executive sedan to go head to head with Volvo S90, Genesis G80, A6, Eclass and 5series.
It should have been RWD based with turbo 4,6, and 8 cyl engines mated to a 10speed trans. Ride would focus on luxury but can allow for sporty driving when needed. Interior would have the Best in class materials and best in class rear space. It would deliver value for the $$$. That would be a GREAT ES and get me excited for Lexus comeback to past glory - this is meh.
Then GS could be the 4door coupe like CLS, A7, GranCoupe.
Why is this so hard to do Lexus??? Just make the investment and go all out.
04-26-18, 01:01 AM
#585
Lexus Test Driver
The Volvo S90 and Audi A6 are FWD architectures with optional AWD. I know most A6s in the US are AWD but that's not the case in Europe and East Asia where FWD variants are more common.
The 5-series and E-class are RWD architectures. So why are these two lumped together with the FWD designs above, whereas the ES is just a Camry in a frock?
Pricing wise, there's room between the ES and the LS but I'm not convinced the GS in its current form belongs there. The S90 outsells the GS globally whereas the 5-series is on another planet in terms of sales. The GS has always been the enthusiasts' choice but the market has moved away from that - look at the unsporty luxo lump the 5-series has morphed into.
Who knows, Lexus just might come up with a hybrid AWD ES to replace the GS sedan while the new GS becomes a 4-door coupe like the A7...
The 5-series and E-class are RWD architectures. So why are these two lumped together with the FWD designs above, whereas the ES is just a Camry in a frock?
Pricing wise, there's room between the ES and the LS but I'm not convinced the GS in its current form belongs there. The S90 outsells the GS globally whereas the 5-series is on another planet in terms of sales. The GS has always been the enthusiasts' choice but the market has moved away from that - look at the unsporty luxo lump the 5-series has morphed into.
Who knows, Lexus just might come up with a hybrid AWD ES to replace the GS sedan while the new GS becomes a 4-door coupe like the A7...