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I have explained this many times, but the saying "falling on deaf ears" just comes into play. Lexus cars will not use TN within architecture nomenclature for marketing reasons. I'd think you'd be aware at this point though, having seen the Camry and Avalon reveals (TNGA-K) against C-HR (TNGA-C) vs Lexus UX (GA-C).
Originally Posted by yardie876
It's referred to as Global Architecture for Luxury Vehicles (GA-K for FWD models). My guess is to differentiate it enough so the Lexus models don't appear as merely reskinned Toyota's.
Yes, thanks for patiently highlighting the obvious. Something that I have said over the better part of two years since the LC 500 was revealed in January 2016, that TNGA-C will become GA-C, as would GA-K debut with the ES following TNGA-K of the Camry. Because I said it, seems that it went unheard of course as fluff. Partly why I don't bother posting anymore, as it is such a waste of time in that respect and I can make better use my time.
You seem to understand that Lexus marketing personnel deliberately want to avoid highlighting any connections to Toyota, neglecting that the fact they are not really their own company and simply represent the best Toyota Motor Co offers (or at least hopes to). I saw this coming (chopping off of "TN" from TNGA with Lexus models).
However, K is in reference to a Japanese language term. Same for L if I can recall. TNGA-L will be for the next Crown.
Yes, but I recall reading another description for GA-L. Lexus just uses that for the US market in English I suppose, as how do they describe K then?
Originally Posted by Sulu
TNGA is not one platform but rather a range of what will be 5 different platforms.
First was the TNGA-C (compact) for the Prius and CH-R (and Corolla). Then it was followed by (TN)GA-L (RWD) for the LC and LS. Recently, we have seen the TNGA-K (mid-size) for the Camry, Avalon, RAV4 and ES (and probably Highlander and Sienna and RX when they are replaced). The last-generation Camry and Avalon, and current Highlander and RX / RX L are on the Toyota K (mid-size FWD) platform; the TNGA-K is the new mid-size FWD platform.
Eventually, there will be a 4th TNGA platform for subcompact cars (Yaris?) and yet another, different TNGA platform for body-on-frame trucks.
That makes 5 different TNGA platforms, for the full range of Toyota / Lexus vehicles.
There is a whole range of brand new TNGA engines (and transmissions) also, of which the 2.5-litre Dynamic Force 4-cylinder engine in the Camry, Camry Hybrid and ESh, and 3.5-litre twin-turbo V6 in the LS are only two examples.
As usual Sulu, a great explanation from a fellow engineer. Too bad much of the automotive media (who are not reading this) are too obtuse or painfully lazy to figure that out, as they are quick to claim that the UX, C-HR, Camry and Prius ALL use the same exact platform. Problem is, readers who do not know better will 100% believe it.
It is just lazily called "TNGA platform" by so many entities (like every new Toyota uses the same platform), that hopefully now as more variations of each roll out (L,C,K,F) they will wise up and not just bark out anything that passes as semi-credible. It is no wonder why many of them ignorantly call some Lexus models "rebadges", as opposed to "similar" through component sharing.
Modular TNGA-B and TNGA-F (Land Cruiser 300, Tundra) are what will be coming next, so the latter will not just be for trucks. I had already said many times since LC 500 reveal, that Lexus were going drop TN in the acronym and just use the last 2 letters, plus a hyphenated naming of the platform version. I based this on 2015 rumours of TNGA-L for RWD cars from TMC, which was confirmed as GA-L for the LC 500 in Jan 2016 and of course predicted it for LS 500 versus TNGA-L for Crown. But of course, some people are more quick to snidely claim one just likes to "hear themselves talk" as opposed to being helpful or informative.
Seems similar to the past N, "New N", New MC, and K platforms, but it is really the modular TNGA philosophies that change how all of that is orientated obviously. A number of people on this forum tried to claim that the next Sienna would use a larger platform differing from TNGA-K. Chastised me for emphatically pointing out how Toyota lazily decided to refresh it again, in spite of the new XV70 Camry and XX50 Avalon and pushed back new XL40 Sienna to MY2020.
Well that 580X programme Sienna (2020) been testing in mule form, unbeknownst to the idiot source (of photo) what it was. Point of this, it state only TNGA-K, C, and B will be what Toyota has for FWD.
Originally Posted by peteharvey
The 5LS was the first attempt, but it didn't go too well.
The 7ES is the second attempt, and a more reasonable result.
I suspect the third and fourth reserved for 5GS & 4IS will go down much better...
Sorry, but this isn't accurate. I have the story on the 200B LS programme, most particularly the design process that concluded in June 2014 and that wasn't the case. None of the proposals looked the LF-LC. The LC design process was a more refined, luxury focused LFA-lite and had to be mildly "streamlined" for a better business case from LF-LC.
Also, I have now gotten personal confirmation for once, that the 300B GS ceased last year and is 100% dead. Lexus will only sell the ES globally. IS was also mentioned, thankfully. No idea on how much bigger, but RC might be consolidated into IS line-up (maybe IC?). People kept pressuring me to find out, so when a London area Lexus dealer in the UK had a national rep coming by, I made sure I could be there (during UK trip last week) get some solid answers for once. Toyoda just talks from both sides of his mouth about "no more boring cars" and is likely behind this.
It is very clear to me that Lexus just wants to remain a discount luxury brand in comparison to European competitors and can never stand toe-to-toe with them, the way I had hoped. Pre-Watanabe led Lexus development of early 2000s/2004 was aspirational, as seen with the LFA, IS-F and LS 600hL. If not for 4th generation LS having some foibles early on, it stood very tall against the V8 W221 S550 and E65/F01 BMW 7 pre-2010.
Other than the LC 500, which would've been higher in price and have some even more exotic touches on the interior, being withheld a bit during the development process, to better meet a $100k USD pricepoint...I don't think anything from Lexus truly attempts to stand FULLY TOE-TO-TOE against the premium luxury competition or beat them in OVERALL EXECUTION, not just at pricing.
The LS doesn't have to offer a V12 or super V8 (think S63), but at least an S560 or 750i equivalent would suffice. It is a joke how they think some middling TTV6 will do the job long term, to sit somewhere between E and S-Class. An F-only V8 is just overkill and is hardly in sight, if even approved already.
It is so clear that Lexus felt so burned by the failure of 6-figure 4LS examples post 2010, that they couldn't bother updating the LS 600h at all and just decided to "stay in their place" than rebound and go higher with more focus and conviction. The LS 500 is simply a product meant to be between midsize 5/E and flagship 7 and S-Class. This explains how it "affected" the GS business case. They used both this 7ES and 5LS to replace the GS. Problem is, it doesn't work on the low end.
This ES is an okay redesign over the XV60, but nothing surprising in the least. It is not convincing as a midsized premium luxury entry outside of select Asian and North American markets. I look forward to studying the market performance in the UK/EU and if Lexus will just give up on selling sedans in Europe. The ES cannot compete against fleet spec, diesel A6s on the low end. As when it comes to top end A6s and S6, how well does it compete as a new nameplate, in terribly patriotic-protectionist markets?
The GS needed better execution after that badly received facelift, not abortion. I expected kaizen of a 25-year old nameplate. CONTINUOUS improvement! Not korosu/shi to the GS for the holy ES fountain of Yen. They are not serious. At least copy the S90 in feature content and offer an AWD turbo V6 at 3.0-3.5L.
Should the LS and ES have a relationship similar to the Lincoln Panther II-III Town Car (FN36, FN36 II) and Continental (FN36, FN74) of the late 80s to early 2000s? Two sizeable sedans with different layouts to cater to different segments. Or is it just that the ES being cheap to make and priced low for massive US sales is a better proposition in face of the quest to make Lexus a more credible luxury brand? This does not look like it will offer AWD, but in the meantime I am done here (until I see some competition surpassing products).
I find carplay rather uninspiring when it comes to whole user experience thing. It's not laid out well either. It's not smart nor radical compared to oem infotainments, it acts as navigation screen is a tablet you hold in your home or office instead of like a screen in a moving vehicle and so on. Apple just like Google didn't do anything to add to driving experience, they both just mimicked familiar interface on your car screen from your cell phone.
Yes for now. But that can be changed with software. For now the comforting familiar interface as you put it brilliantly puts a huge smile on my face. Hey Apple is worth 1 trillion dollars with that little familiar interface.
My prediction is, Lexus will drop the GS. The next IS will grow in size. Then in a few years a facelifted 7ES would get an AWD option.
I agree with this scenario. 7ES will need to prove that it can be a success first under these changing 'sedan to suv' times. Ford is doing some drastic moves now.
Toyota sedan line up is far simpler than what BMW or Audi has, yet everything is under intense evaluation to stay in business. Declining sales is the flashing yellow warning light the market is shifting. 2018/2019 are going to be benchmark years for the 2020-2029 decade and where capital and manufacturing resources are going to be allocated. Will we continue to see a ramp up to hybrid vehicles? how will tesla fare to fulfilling it's back orders, model Y, and the truck. For many, it's going to be a wake up call that the exciting stuff are the product car makers sell. Bland or low cost cars will concede to the glut of quality cars in the used car market.
I will again mention, I am backtracking. After reading an issue of Japanese language Mag X in late December 2016, I mentioned that the GS successor development had been frozen and would not be replaced. Other sites belatedly caught on to that discovery and went with it 3 months later in 2017 when written by Lexus Enthusiast in English.
Despite that, I backtracked from that position and refuted Mag X's claims in March 2017, based on industry access info regarding 300B and a few conversations with people working for/with TMC globally. A Lexus UK rep has personally confirmed it is dead and will not be redesigned as a 4-door coupe, especially because some of that info timeline has changed to TBD or just became dated. The IS sedan is on its way, roughly 2 years away according to this source. My post above says more.
From a car enthusiast point of view, we all get why the ES cannot be a true replacement for the GS (handling, driving dynamics, RWD vs FWD) but in layman terms, there's no denying in the increased price point. You could argue that "mainstream" customers will not care about it being FWD,
No, it's not a be-all case. I explained earlier in the thread why a "car" enthusiast does not necessarily have to be a speed or handling enthusiast. The two do not necessarily go hand-in-hand. There are car enthusiasts and there are aggressive-driving enthusiasts.
Sad news indeed, Toyota even with all the money they have, they're still super stingy. First they killed the ISF and now this. No consistency at all, continuous disappointment in their so-called innovations. At this stage, Genesis just might overtake them in the next 5 years, this is truly sad.
My prediction is, Lexus will drop the GS. The next IS will grow in size. Then in a few years a facelifted 7ES would get an AWD option.
Japanese mags are saying 2.5t engine is coming in 2019.... if this comes with AWD or not is anyone's guessing. But Chinese mags also mentioned 2.5t for 2019.
So back to the ES... I like the sharper sportier styling despite the Mazda 6 resemblance from the side and 3/4 rear view.
Interior looks nice, though I will have to see it in person if it truly has improved in better materials (door panels, center console, etc.). Looks promising but at essentially 196" long this is getting borderline big - for perspective, same as the original LS !!
I have explained this many times, but the saying "falling on deaf ears" just comes into play. Lexus cars will not use TN within architecture nomenclature for marketing reasons. I'd think you'd be aware at this point though, having seen the Camry and Avalon reveals (TNGA-K) against C-HR (TNGA-C) vs Lexus UX (GA-C).
Yes, thanks for patiently highlighting the obvious. Something that I have said over the better part of two years since the LC 500 was revealed in January 2016, that TNGA-C will become GA-C, as would GA-K debut with the ES following TNGA-K of the Camry. Because I said it, seems that it went unheard of course as fluff. Partly why I don't bother posting anymore, as it is such a waste of time in that respect and I can make better use my time.
You seem to understand that Lexus marketing personnel deliberately want to avoid highlighting any connections to Toyota, neglecting that the fact they are not really their own company and simply represent the best Toyota Motor Co offers (or at least hopes to). I saw this coming (chopping off of "TN" from TNGA with Lexus models).
However, K is in reference to a Japanese language term. Same for L if I can recall. TNGA-L will be for the next Crown.
Yes, but I recall reading another description for GA-L. Lexus just uses that for the US market in English I suppose, as how do they describe K then?
As usual Sulu, a great explanation from a fellow engineer. Too bad much of the automotive media (who are not reading this) are too obtuse or painfully lazy to figure that out, as they are quick to claim that the UX, C-HR, Camry and Prius ALL use the same exact platform. Problem is, readers who do not know better will 100% believe it.
It is just lazily called "TNGA platform" by so many entities (like every new Toyota uses the same platform), that hopefully now as more variations of each roll out (L,C,K,F) they will wise up and not just bark out anything that passes as semi-credible. It is no wonder why many of them ignorantly call some Lexus models "rebadges", as opposed to "similar" through component sharing.
Modular TNGA-B and TNGA-F (Land Cruiser 300, Tundra) are what will be coming next, so the latter will not just be for trucks. I had already said many times since LC 500 reveal, that Lexus were going drop TN in the acronym and just use the last 2 letters, plus a hyphenated naming of the platform version. I based this on 2015 rumours of TNGA-L for RWD cars from TMC, which was confirmed as GA-L for the LC 500 in Jan 2016 and of course predicted it for LS 500 versus TNGA-L for Crown. But of course, some people are more quick to snidely claim one just likes to "hear themselves talk" as opposed to being helpful or informative.
Seems similar to the past N, "New N", New MC, and K platforms, but it is really the modular TNGA philosophies that change how all of that is orientated obviously. A number of people on this forum tried to claim that the next Sienna would use a larger platform differing from TNGA-K. Chastised me for emphatically pointing out how Toyota lazily decided to refresh it again, in spite of the new XV70 Camry and XX50 Avalon and pushed back new XL40 Sienna to MY2020.
Well that 580X programme Sienna (2020) been testing in mule form, unbeknownst to the idiot source (of photo) what it was. Point of this, it state only TNGA-K, C, and B will be what Toyota has for FWD.
Sorry, but this isn't accurate. I have the story on the 200B LS programme, most particularly the design process that concluded in June 2014 and that wasn't the case. None of the proposals looked the LF-LC. The LC design process was a more refined, luxury focused LFA-lite and had to be mildly "streamlined" for a better business case from LF-LC.
Also, I have now gotten personal confirmation for once, that the 300B GS ceased last year and is 100% dead. Lexus will only sell the ES globally. IS was also mentioned, thankfully. No idea on how much bigger, but RC might be consolidated into IS line-up (maybe IC?). People kept pressuring me to find out, so when a London area Lexus dealer in the UK had a national rep coming by, I made sure I could be there (during UK trip last week) get some solid answers for once. Toyoda just talks from both sides of his mouth about "no more boring cars" and is likely behind this.
It is very clear to me that Lexus just wants to remain a discount luxury brand in comparison to European competitors and can never stand toe-to-toe with them, the way I had hoped. Pre-Watanabe led Lexus development of early 2000s/2004 was aspirational, as seen with the LFA, IS-F and LS 600hL. If not for 4th generation LS having some foibles early on, it stood very tall against the V8 W221 S550 and E65/F01 BMW 7 pre-2010.
Other than the LC 500, which would've been higher in price and have some even more exotic touches on the interior, being withheld a bit during the development process, to better meet a $100k USD pricepoint...I don't think anything from Lexus truly attempts to stand FULLY TOE-TO-TOE against the premium luxury competition or beat them in OVERALL EXECUTION, not just at pricing.
The LS doesn't have to offer a V12 or super V8 (think S63), but at least an S560 or 750i equivalent would suffice. It is a joke how they think some middling TTV6 will do the job long term, to sit somewhere between E and S-Class. An F-only V8 is just overkill and is hardly in sight, if even approved already.
It is so clear that Lexus felt so burned by the failure of 6-figure 4LS examples post 2010, that they couldn't bother updating the LS 600h at all and just decided to "stay in their place" than rebound and go higher with more focus and conviction. The LS 500 is simply a product meant to be between midsize 5/E and flagship 7 and S-Class. This explains how it "affected" the GS business case. They used both this 7ES and 5LS to replace the GS. Problem is, it doesn't work on the low end.
This ES is an okay redesign over the XV60, but nothing surprising in the least. It is not convincing as a midsized premium luxury entry outside of select Asian and North American markets. I look forward to studying the market performance in the UK/EU and if Lexus will just give up on selling sedans in Europe. The ES cannot compete against fleet spec, diesel A6s on the low end. As when it comes to top end A6s and S6, how well does it compete as a new nameplate, in terribly patriotic-protectionist markets?
The GS needed better execution after that badly received facelift, not abortion. I expected kaizen of a 25-year old nameplate. CONTINUOUS improvement! Not korosu/shi to the GS for the holy ES fountain of Yen. They are not serious. At least copy the S90 in feature content and offer an AWD turbo V6 at 3.0-3.5L.
Should the LS and ES have a relationship similar to the Lincoln Panther II-III Town Car (FN36, FN36 II) and Continental (FN36, FN74) of the late 80s to early 2000s? Two sizeable sedans with different layouts to cater to different segments. Or is it just that the ES being cheap to make and priced low for massive US sales is a better proposition in face of the quest to make Lexus a more credible luxury brand? This does not look like it will offer AWD, but in the meantime I am done here (until I see some competition surpassing products).
Thanks to you and Sulu for a great explanation.
Here is a question for either of you. Is the TNGA platform flexible enough that you can can great a ES-FWD as well as ES-RWD for limited markets?
ES oversold GS, mainly because ES is cheaper.
If both ES & GS were the same price, don't be surprized if GS actually oversells ES!
.
That's may be true in a vacuum, but there are plenty of competitors that offers more at the GS price range. So both the ES and GS will fail unless they offer the same or more than what the competition offers.
ES already offers something most others dont. A non sport sedan entry level luxury car. Not everyone wants a sports sedan. The ES is already bigger inside than the GS, some people want the space. ES and IS can hold the entry level for lexus as a comfy or sport option. Otherwise have this compromise scenario like how the 3 series is getting bland and soft now.
That's may be true in a vacuum, but there are plenty of competitors that offers more at the GS price range. So both the ES and GS will fail unless they offer the same ormore than what the competition offers.
I don’t think this would be true. Not everyone wants a rear wheel drive model. The rear seats in the GS are not as easy to live with as the ES.
I have explained this many times, but the saying "falling on deaf ears" just comes into play. Lexus cars will not use TN within architecture nomenclature for marketing reasons. I'd think you'd be aware at this point though, having seen the Camry and Avalon reveals (TNGA-K) against C-HR (TNGA-C) vs Lexus UX (GA-C).
Yes, thanks for patiently highlighting the obvious. Something that I have said over the better part of two years since the LC 500 was revealed in January 2016, that TNGA-C will become GA-C, as would GA-K debut with the ES following TNGA-K of the Camry. Because I said it, seems that it went unheard of course as fluff. Partly why I don't bother posting anymore, as it is such a waste of time in that respect and I can make better use my time.
You seem to understand that Lexus marketing personnel deliberately want to avoid highlighting any connections to Toyota, neglecting that the fact they are not really their own company and simply represent the best Toyota Motor Co offers (or at least hopes to). I saw this coming (chopping off of "TN" from TNGA with Lexus models).
However, K is in reference to a Japanese language term. Same for L if I can recall. TNGA-L will be for the next Crown.
Yes, but I recall reading another description for GA-L. Lexus just uses that for the US market in English I suppose, as how do they describe K then?
As usual Sulu, a great explanation from a fellow engineer. Too bad much of the automotive media (who are not reading this) are too obtuse or painfully lazy to figure that out, as they are quick to claim that the UX, C-HR, Camry and Prius ALL use the same exact platform. Problem is, readers who do not know better will 100% believe it.
It is just lazily called "TNGA platform" by so many entities (like every new Toyota uses the same platform), that hopefully now as more variations of each roll out (L,C,K,F) they will wise up and not just bark out anything that passes as semi-credible. It is no wonder why many of them ignorantly call some Lexus models "rebadges", as opposed to "similar" through component sharing.
Modular TNGA-B and TNGA-F (Land Cruiser 300, Tundra) are what will be coming next, so the latter will not just be for trucks. I had already said many times since LC 500 reveal, that Lexus were going drop TN in the acronym and just use the last 2 letters, plus a hyphenated naming of the platform version. I based this on 2015 rumours of TNGA-L for RWD cars from TMC, which was confirmed as GA-L for the LC 500 in Jan 2016 and of course predicted it for LS 500 versus TNGA-L for Crown. But of course, some people are more quick to snidely claim one just likes to "hear themselves talk" as opposed to being helpful or informative.
Seems similar to the past N, "New N", New MC, and K platforms, but it is really the modular TNGA philosophies that change how all of that is orientated obviously. A number of people on this forum tried to claim that the next Sienna would use a larger platform differing from TNGA-K. Chastised me for emphatically pointing out how Toyota lazily decided to refresh it again, in spite of the new XV70 Camry and XX50 Avalon and pushed back new XL40 Sienna to MY2020.
Well that 580X programme Sienna (2020) been testing in mule form, unbeknownst to the idiot source (of photo) what it was. Point of this, it state only TNGA-K, C, and B will be what Toyota has for FWD.
Sorry, but this isn't accurate. I have the story on the 200B LS programme, most particularly the design process that concluded in June 2014 and that wasn't the case. None of the proposals looked the LF-LC. The LC design process was a more refined, luxury focused LFA-lite and had to be mildly "streamlined" for a better business case from LF-LC.
Also, I have now gotten personal confirmation for once, that the 300B GS ceased last year and is 100% dead. Lexus will only sell the ES globally. IS was also mentioned, thankfully. No idea on how much bigger, but RC might be consolidated into IS line-up (maybe IC?). People kept pressuring me to find out, so when a London area Lexus dealer in the UK had a national rep coming by, I made sure I could be there (during UK trip last week) get some solid answers for once. Toyoda just talks from both sides of his mouth about "no more boring cars" and is likely behind this.
It is very clear to me that Lexus just wants to remain a discount luxury brand in comparison to European competitors and can never stand toe-to-toe with them, the way I had hoped. Pre-Watanabe led Lexus development of early 2000s/2004 was aspirational, as seen with the LFA, IS-F and LS 600hL. If not for 4th generation LS having some foibles early on, it stood very tall against the V8 W221 S550 and E65/F01 BMW 7 pre-2010.
Other than the LC 500, which would've been higher in price and have some even more exotic touches on the interior, being withheld a bit during the development process, to better meet a $100k USD pricepoint...I don't think anything from Lexus truly attempts to stand FULLY TOE-TO-TOE against the premium luxury competition or beat them in OVERALL EXECUTION, not just at pricing.
The LS doesn't have to offer a V12 or super V8 (think S63), but at least an S560 or 750i equivalent would suffice. It is a joke how they think some middling TTV6 will do the job long term, to sit somewhere between E and S-Class. An F-only V8 is just overkill and is hardly in sight, if even approved already.
It is so clear that Lexus felt so burned by the failure of 6-figure 4LS examples post 2010, that they couldn't bother updating the LS 600h at all and just decided to "stay in their place" than rebound and go higher with more focus and conviction. The LS 500 is simply a product meant to be between midsize 5/E and flagship 7 and S-Class. This explains how it "affected" the GS business case. They used both this 7ES and 5LS to replace the GS. Problem is, it doesn't work on the low end.
This ES is an okay redesign over the XV60, but nothing surprising in the least. It is not convincing as a midsized premium luxury entry outside of select Asian and North American markets. I look forward to studying the market performance in the UK/EU and if Lexus will just give up on selling sedans in Europe. The ES cannot compete against fleet spec, diesel A6s on the low end. As when it comes to top end A6s and S6, how well does it compete as a new nameplate, in terribly patriotic-protectionist markets?
The GS needed better execution after that badly received facelift, not abortion. I expected kaizen of a 25-year old nameplate. CONTINUOUS improvement! Not korosu/shi to the GS for the holy ES fountain of Yen. They are not serious. At least copy the S90 in feature content and offer an AWD turbo V6 at 3.0-3.5L.
Should the LS and ES have a relationship similar to the Lincoln Panther II-III Town Car (FN36, FN36 II) and Continental (FN36, FN74) of the late 80s to early 2000s? Two sizeable sedans with different layouts to cater to different segments. Or is it just that the ES being cheap to make and priced low for massive US sales is a better proposition in face of the quest to make Lexus a more credible luxury brand? This does not look like it will offer AWD, but in the meantime I am done here (until I see some competition surpassing products).
Thanks for the insight, very sad to hear the GS is gone. I was skeptical when Toyoda took the reigns of Lexus, and as I've said before he has been killing the brand.
Between the spindle grill including the horrific GS refresh, the belated LS redesign that lost it the lead position in the market, and the half assed attempt at a coupe with the RC, and now killing the GS entirely, he has really done a number on Lexus.
The LC is probably the only good outcome, and that only happened because the concept was so well received and people begged him to make it.
I assumed the new ES would be AWD, that doesn't seem to be the case. How is it going to compete globally as a GS replacement without AWD?
04-26-18, 01:28 AM
