All-new 2019 Lexus ES to debut at Beijing Motorshow
04-26-18, 08:52 AM
#601
Thanks for the insight, very sad to hear the GS is gone. I was skeptical when Toyoda took the reigns of Lexus, and as I've said before he has been killing the brand.
Between the spindle grill including the horrific GS refresh, the belated LS redesign that lost it the lead position in the market, and the half assed attempt at a coupe with the RC, and now killing the GS entirely, he has really done a number on Lexus.
The LC is probably the only good outcome, and that only happened because the concept was so well received and people begged him to make it.
I assumed the new ES would be AWD, that doesn't seem to be the case. How is it going to compete globally as a GS replacement without AWD?
Between the spindle grill including the horrific GS refresh, the belated LS redesign that lost it the lead position in the market, and the half assed attempt at a coupe with the RC, and now killing the GS entirely, he has really done a number on Lexus.
The LC is probably the only good outcome, and that only happened because the concept was so well received and people begged him to make it.
I assumed the new ES would be AWD, that doesn't seem to be the case. How is it going to compete globally as a GS replacement without AWD?
04-26-18, 08:55 AM
#602
ES already offers something most others dont. A non sport sedan entry level luxury car. Not everyone wants a sports sedan. The ES is already bigger inside than the GS, some people want the space. ES and IS can hold the entry level for lexus as a comfy or sport option. Otherwise have this compromise scenario like how the 3 series is getting bland and soft now.
When ES ups the ante on large back seat luxury entry sedan, then it is bad, it should be RWD, who cares about rear space, it is all about handling finesse.
Cant win with some people.
In the same time, LS is selling out, people complain that they cant model they want due to long order times, and how LS is not being discounted yet.... and ES will likely double the sales worldwide compared to something like 2016.
But the brand is being killed because GS, model that people did not want to buy, is going to be discontinued.
04-26-18, 09:10 AM
#603
Lexus Champion
I don’t think the brand is going to die, but having no mid sized sport sedan means that those of us who want one have to go elsewhere. As a long time Lexus enthusiast, this disappoints me. The Lexus brand will go on, but it’s hard to see how I can still be a part of it. Oh well. The Stinger just moved up on my list.
04-26-18, 09:18 AM
#604
Pole Position
They made a business decision. GS was not selling. And I'm sure the costs saved and effort put into the GS will now be put into the Es,Is,LS
04-26-18, 09:42 AM
#605
Lexus Fanatic
The people gnashing their teeth about the GS being discontinued, did you buy one?
04-26-18, 09:45 AM
#606
I will again mention, I am backtracking. After reading an issue of Japanese language Mag X in late December 2016, I mentioned that the GS successor development had been frozen and would not be replaced. Other sites belatedly caught on to that discovery and went with it 3 months later in 2017 when written by Lexus Enthusiast in English.
Despite that, I backtracked from that position and refuted Mag X's claims in March 2017, based on industry access info regarding 300B and a few conversations with people working for/with TMC globally. A Lexus UK rep has personally confirmed it is dead and will not be redesigned as a 4-door coupe, especially because some of that info timeline has changed to TBD or just became dated. The IS sedan is on its way, roughly 2 years away according to this source. My post above says more.
Despite that, I backtracked from that position and refuted Mag X's claims in March 2017, based on industry access info regarding 300B and a few conversations with people working for/with TMC globally. A Lexus UK rep has personally confirmed it is dead and will not be redesigned as a 4-door coupe, especially because some of that info timeline has changed to TBD or just became dated. The IS sedan is on its way, roughly 2 years away according to this source. My post above says more.
04-26-18, 09:47 AM
#608
Lexus Test Driver
I agree.
From a car enthusiast point of view, we all get why the ES cannot be a true replacement for the GS (handling, driving dynamics, RWD vs FWD) but in layman terms, there's no denying in the increased price point. You could argue that "mainstream" customers will not care about it being FWD, but what about the quality of the materials? The comfort of the GS should definitely trump the ES. The GS ($46k) in the U.S is 8k more expensive than the ES ($39k) and in Europe, the difference is even wider, the IS starts at €36k and the GS at €53k (Spanish prices). The LS in Spain is €112k and $75k in the US, there needs to be a model in between to capture that spectrum of willingness to pay.
I still think that the ES cannot compete in the same E class and 5 Series segment in equal terms. Sure, the ES has certainly being upgraded but it still has the "Camry" or Toyota stigma, a very powerful and established name while the GS has its own brand equity. I see Lexus repositioning the GS as a for door coupe a la CLS Class or A7. Make no mistake, the GS is no SC, the GS has years of experience and it is a well developed brand in the world, it's harder to elevate the ES brand vis a vis GS when you can still leverage the GS
From a car enthusiast point of view, we all get why the ES cannot be a true replacement for the GS (handling, driving dynamics, RWD vs FWD) but in layman terms, there's no denying in the increased price point. You could argue that "mainstream" customers will not care about it being FWD, but what about the quality of the materials? The comfort of the GS should definitely trump the ES. The GS ($46k) in the U.S is 8k more expensive than the ES ($39k) and in Europe, the difference is even wider, the IS starts at €36k and the GS at €53k (Spanish prices). The LS in Spain is €112k and $75k in the US, there needs to be a model in between to capture that spectrum of willingness to pay.
I still think that the ES cannot compete in the same E class and 5 Series segment in equal terms. Sure, the ES has certainly being upgraded but it still has the "Camry" or Toyota stigma, a very powerful and established name while the GS has its own brand equity. I see Lexus repositioning the GS as a for door coupe a la CLS Class or A7. Make no mistake, the GS is no SC, the GS has years of experience and it is a well developed brand in the world, it's harder to elevate the ES brand vis a vis GS when you can still leverage the GS
If Lexus wants the ES to compete against the Germans, it needs a AWD option with a TTV6. Until that happens - the Lexus ES is just another dressed up Camry/Avalon - no matter how good I think it is. I also personally think Lexus will never give the ES a AWD or TTV6 option. They are too conservative to mess with a winning formula. The bottom line is Toyota cares about money, not enthusiasts. This is why many enthusiasts left Toyota awhile ago.
The Volvo S90 and Audi A6 are FWD architectures with optional AWD. I know most A6s in the US are AWD but that's not the case in Europe and East Asia where FWD variants are more common.
The 5-series and E-class are RWD architectures. So why are these two lumped together with the FWD designs above, whereas the ES is just a Camry in a frock?
Pricing wise, there's room between the ES and the LS but I'm not convinced the GS in its current form belongs there. The S90 outsells the GS globally whereas the 5-series is on another planet in terms of sales. The GS has always been the enthusiasts' choice but the market has moved away from that - look at the unsporty luxo lump the 5-series has morphed into.
Who knows, Lexus just might come up with a hybrid AWD ES to replace the GS sedan while the new GS becomes a 4-door coupe like the A7...
The 5-series and E-class are RWD architectures. So why are these two lumped together with the FWD designs above, whereas the ES is just a Camry in a frock?
Pricing wise, there's room between the ES and the LS but I'm not convinced the GS in its current form belongs there. The S90 outsells the GS globally whereas the 5-series is on another planet in terms of sales. The GS has always been the enthusiasts' choice but the market has moved away from that - look at the unsporty luxo lump the 5-series has morphed into.
Who knows, Lexus just might come up with a hybrid AWD ES to replace the GS sedan while the new GS becomes a 4-door coupe like the A7...
However - the Audi A6 runs a longitudinal FWD layout which behaves more like a RWD.
This is the biggest difference on why the Lexus ES isn't seen to be a competitor for the Audi A6 or any other RWD offering.
If the Lexus ES is indeed Lexus' main car to compete with the Germans, they'll lose. And this is coming from a Toyota/Lexus fan.
Also, I have now gotten personal confirmation for once, that the 300B GS ceased last year and is 100% dead. Lexus will only sell the ES globally. IS was also mentioned, thankfully. No idea on how much bigger, but RC might be consolidated into IS line-up (maybe IC?). People kept pressuring me to find out, so when a London area Lexus dealer in the UK had a national rep coming by, I made sure I could be there (during UK trip last week) get some solid answers for once. Toyoda just talks from both sides of his mouth about "no more boring cars" and is likely behind this.
The RC should have been part of the Lexus IS line-up long ago. Never knew why they felt the need to make its own thing.
I also don't think the Lexus ES will never get an AWD option. Toyota/Lexus wants to keep this car cheap as much as possible to increase profits. To be honest, if they wanted to offer a AWD option, they wouldn't offer it during a facelift. They would probably offered it at release to draw up more hype.
Toyota/Lexus are rich. They have tons of cash on hand. They don't need to save any money or cost. If the Lexus GS is canceled, it was just more of Toyota wanting to sell thing that sells, like they always do.
04-26-18, 09:57 AM
#609
GS and LS owners, all worried about ES
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...l#post10183240
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-...-our-cars.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...l#post10183240
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-...-our-cars.html
04-26-18, 10:02 AM
#610
What is interesting about Toyota, is that they used (and still do) pride themselves on making cars that were specifically designed for certain markets. It will be sad if this new ES is designed first and foremost for the Chinese market, and the US is considered secondary.
Eventually Lexus will be building this ES in China as well.
Eventually Lexus will be building this ES in China as well.
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04-26-18, 11:00 AM
#611
Lexus Test Driver
But I'll agree - this won't bother most people. I know it won't bother me because I won't ever buy a ES. I like the car but I just can't shake the fact its a dressed up Camry/Avalon. However - I'll hate the Lexus ES if its made in China though.
04-26-18, 11:01 AM
#612
Lexus Test Driver
+1 I agree. The Lexus ES can not compete in the same class as the E/5/A6 and etc... Its definitely an upgrade over say a Lexus IS but its not in the levels of executive sedans. Like you mentioned, its still a dressed up Camry/Avalon. That's one of the main issues. It shares too much with a basic car.
If Lexus wants the ES to compete against the Germans, it needs a AWD option with a TTV6. Until that happens - the Lexus ES is just another dressed up Camry/Avalon - no matter how good I think it is. I also personally think Lexus will never give the ES a AWD or TTV6 option. They are too conservative to mess with a winning formula. The bottom line is Toyota cares about money, not enthusiasts. This is why many enthusiasts left Toyota awhile ago.
The Lexus ES, like mention before by a bunch of people, is more a competitor to Volvo, Buick, and etc... "near-luxury" or "premium" type vehicles. The Volvo S90 runs a transverse FWD layout, like those in the Buick and ES.
However - the Audi A6 runs a longitudinal FWD layout which behaves more like a RWD.
This is the biggest difference on why the Lexus ES isn't seen to be a competitor for the Audi A6 or any other RWD offering.
If the Lexus ES is indeed Lexus' main car to compete with the Germans, they'll lose. And this is coming from a Toyota/Lexus fan.
I'll hold out till this is 100% confirmed by Lexus. Just because one person at Toyota says the GS is dead - doesn't mean its dead. Its not hard to use the Toyota Crown and to develop a Lexus GS.
The RC should have been part of the Lexus IS line-up long ago. Never knew why they felt the need to make its own thing.
I don't think the Lexus IS will grow in size. If it does, it'll be minimal. The Lexus IS has always been the smaller and "sportier" car. It'll be a stupid idea to grow it in size to make feel like a "smaller ES".
I also don't think the Lexus ES will never get an AWD option. Toyota/Lexus wants to keep this car cheap as much as possible to increase profits. To be honest, if they wanted to offer a AWD option, they wouldn't offer it during a facelift. They would probably offered it at release to draw up more hype.
This is likely true because 2 years away would be 2020. The next Lexus IS should be a MY2021 following the 7 year life cycle.
Toyota/Lexus are rich. They have tons of cash on hand. They don't need to save any money or cost. If the Lexus GS is canceled, it was just more of Toyota wanting to sell thing that sells, like they always do.
If Lexus wants the ES to compete against the Germans, it needs a AWD option with a TTV6. Until that happens - the Lexus ES is just another dressed up Camry/Avalon - no matter how good I think it is. I also personally think Lexus will never give the ES a AWD or TTV6 option. They are too conservative to mess with a winning formula. The bottom line is Toyota cares about money, not enthusiasts. This is why many enthusiasts left Toyota awhile ago.
The Lexus ES, like mention before by a bunch of people, is more a competitor to Volvo, Buick, and etc... "near-luxury" or "premium" type vehicles. The Volvo S90 runs a transverse FWD layout, like those in the Buick and ES.
However - the Audi A6 runs a longitudinal FWD layout which behaves more like a RWD.
This is the biggest difference on why the Lexus ES isn't seen to be a competitor for the Audi A6 or any other RWD offering.
If the Lexus ES is indeed Lexus' main car to compete with the Germans, they'll lose. And this is coming from a Toyota/Lexus fan.
I'll hold out till this is 100% confirmed by Lexus. Just because one person at Toyota says the GS is dead - doesn't mean its dead. Its not hard to use the Toyota Crown and to develop a Lexus GS.
The RC should have been part of the Lexus IS line-up long ago. Never knew why they felt the need to make its own thing.
I don't think the Lexus IS will grow in size. If it does, it'll be minimal. The Lexus IS has always been the smaller and "sportier" car. It'll be a stupid idea to grow it in size to make feel like a "smaller ES".
I also don't think the Lexus ES will never get an AWD option. Toyota/Lexus wants to keep this car cheap as much as possible to increase profits. To be honest, if they wanted to offer a AWD option, they wouldn't offer it during a facelift. They would probably offered it at release to draw up more hype.
This is likely true because 2 years away would be 2020. The next Lexus IS should be a MY2021 following the 7 year life cycle.
Toyota/Lexus are rich. They have tons of cash on hand. They don't need to save any money or cost. If the Lexus GS is canceled, it was just more of Toyota wanting to sell thing that sells, like they always do.
04-26-18, 11:29 AM
#613
Also, I have now gotten personal confirmation for once, that the 300B GS ceased last year and is 100% dead. Lexus will only sell the ES globally. IS was also mentioned, thankfully. No idea on how much bigger, but RC might be consolidated into IS line-up (maybe IC?). People kept pressuring me to find out, so when a London area Lexus dealer in the UK had a national rep coming by, I made sure I could be there (during UK trip last week) get some solid answers for once. Toyoda just talks from both sides of his mouth about "no more boring cars" and is likely behind this.
It is very clear to me that Lexus just wants to remain a discount luxury brand in comparison to European competitors and can never stand toe-to-toe with them, the way I had hoped. Pre-Watanabe led Lexus development of early 2000s/2004 was aspirational, as seen with the LFA, IS-F and LS 600hL. If not for 4th generation LS having some foibles early on, it stood very tall against the V8 W221 S550 and E65/F01 BMW 7 pre-2010.
It is very clear to me that Lexus just wants to remain a discount luxury brand in comparison to European competitors and can never stand toe-to-toe with them, the way I had hoped. Pre-Watanabe led Lexus development of early 2000s/2004 was aspirational, as seen with the LFA, IS-F and LS 600hL. If not for 4th generation LS having some foibles early on, it stood very tall against the V8 W221 S550 and E65/F01 BMW 7 pre-2010.
How could a smart company like Toyota Motor Corp have a Camry FWD-based 7ES replace a 5GS line with RWD for near 50/50 weight distribution, part aluminium chassis for weight reduction, and double wishbone front suspension to keep the wheels perpendicular to the road surface to maximize grip?
I have a wild suspicion that TMC is up to something big?
I don't think this new Lexus 7ES will really replace the GS.
I "wildly" suspect that Akio is preparing a big surprize in electrification with a forthcoming GSe [e for full electric] full battery powered electric vehicle BEV to replace the GS as Lexus' first fully electric sedan to take on the Tesla Model S and Porsche's Mission e - for a fraction of the price.
TMC is not that stupid.
Dream on - you might say...
04-26-18, 11:50 AM
#615
Its sad because its designed for a market that is not ours. Think about it this way. For example: this can lead to the Chinese Market deciding the feature, options and the directions for the Lexus ES while the US Market are just stuck with whatever they decide. We might not like what they choose nor we get much of a say.
But I'll agree - this won't bother most people. I know it won't bother me because I won't ever buy a ES. I like the car but I just can't shake the fact its a dressed up Camry/Avalon. However - I'll hate the Lexus ES if its made in China though.
But I'll agree - this won't bother most people. I know it won't bother me because I won't ever buy a ES. I like the car but I just can't shake the fact its a dressed up Camry/Avalon. However - I'll hate the Lexus ES if its made in China though.
But out of curiosity, since you will never buy one, why hang out in a forum dedicated to it?