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The Alfa 156 and 147 were lovely-handling cars and they're both FWD. The 156 GTA didn't have a problem with torque steer and it sounded like a heavenly choir at 7000 rpm - I remember coming back from a test drive with goosebumps all over. Even the big 166 had good handling for its size.
Maybe Europeans aren't as snobbish when it comes to cars because the European market is full of FWD cars with good handling. And if someone wants a Camry with 19" wheels and quad exhausts, who am I to judge? The same could be said of an F-sport ES. I used to be into modding so I understand how some people want to personalize their cars. Otherwise we'd all be driving gray Ladas...
Indeed, we have so many... usually our cars dont have 300hp engines though . But you can get torque steer in any diesel still, if you just stomp the gas pedal like there is no tomorrow, you can always feel your front end getting lighter to some extent. But thats FWD and is expected.
For Europe, ES F-Sport will still be more comfortable than most other sedans, and yet will handle just fine too. Germans tune their local cars quite hard here.
Thanks for the insight, very sad to hear the GS is gone. I was skeptical when Toyoda took the reigns of Lexus, and as I've said before he has been killing the brand.
Between the spindle grill including the horrific GS refresh, the belated LS redesign that lost it the lead position in the market, and the half assed attempt at a coupe with the RC, and now killing the GS entirely, he has really done a number on Lexus.
The LC is probably the only good outcome, and that only happened because the concept was so well received and people begged him to make it.
I assumed the new ES would be AWD, that doesn't seem to be the case. How is it going to compete globally as a GS replacement without AWD?
Toyoda was never fond of Lexus, I don't think he understands premium segment, maybe he doesn't want to be a part of it or he simply is bean counting into oblivion. He does like performance cars which unfortunately have nothing to do with premium segment and badges or Lexus. He is also the one behind GS downward spiral, 4GS couldn't be what was supposed to be cause he didn't believe in it and he cut off the funding so the team had many obstacles they had to overcome with just know-how. That didn't affect the sales much mainly because of more global markets it was offed for sale compared to previous GS generations but it served as an excuse for Toyoda to cancel it. And refresh low sales have nothing to do with "it was received poorly" but instead it was purposeful slow down of manufacturing line. 4GS was sabotaged on every front by Toyota highest ranking officers. LC will see the same fate, they will blame the slow sales and how ultra-premium experiment didn't work out for them in terms of numbers. LC is already crippled by stone age V8 and dark age hybrid V6 that was conceived in 3GS dozen years ago and funny enough budget for it's evolution in 4GS was cut off so all they could have done is to switch to Atkinson instead of improving the electrical motors, components and batteries. As an example LCh should have debuted with second gen li-on batteries and controllers if 4GS was given that chance like it was promised. Hampering 4GS development had consequences across the board not just for GS line. Instead they fitted cheap 4spd auto into already complex synergy transmission just to have something new to tell you about it.
It's very definite that Lexus is going into a tier with Infiniti and Acura within 5 years, less than their model life cycle. Audi will overtake them in US by then and their portfolio of vehicles will still lag behind Germans. Company that debates should they build a Toyota reskin seven seater or genuine RWD coupe convertible is not a premium automotive company. Something is terribly wrong within Lexus and it mostly shows in continuity which suggest there is a struggle going on inside. LS was way too late, RC was built from ground up to be both hardtop and convertible, GS was on schedule then canceled, they cannot make RWD portfolio desirable as they keep constraining the budget when it comes to PU development, relying on Toyota cars to reskin them to make the business case and so on.
All of that might work for Lexus as it works for Infiniti and Acura too but that is not Tier 1 luxury operation.
Lexus has conceded the premium product game and buyers will see through their Toyota reskins just like they've seen through mother of all reskins GM and their product line. If they were not able to sell a 100K product in the past, today within just one lifecycle of seven years they will not be able to sell a 80K product and within a decade and a half they will be stuck with 60K ceiling just like Infiniti and Acura.
In order for Lexus to prosper they need independent management led by a single passionate person cut off from the Toyota business bean counting culture entirely. They just need access to Toyota funds, maybe some critical technology, manufacturing line and nothing more. They need separate platform and PU development (both ICE, Hybrid, PHEV and BEV) with their own R&D inventions, findings and conclusions. This means independent Lexus would bleed Toyota's money for quite some time but after it all settles they would be banking and more importantly be competitive in true premium segment.
Have been carefully looking at pics of the 2019 ES F Sport exterior front/sides and comparing it to the GS F that made its debut two years ago. The ES has a more sloped look like the LS and more swept back headlamps that almost are right over the wheel well.
However, strikingly similar looks to the GS F with my very rough side-by-side photo mashup:
This is a fantastic picture comparison! Had no idea how similar they were. The GS F has some questionable styling elements where the ES F has improved on.
At the end of the day, making the ES an easier sell has been accomplished. The debate about FWD gets silly. Maybe down the road, we will see a special performance variant of ES to test the waters of 25% more HP or more and AWD/RWD options. For the general market FWD will suffice. FWD is always a better car in snow than RWD, Hence AWD > FWD > RWD in snow. Cant really make everyone happy and it's Toyota/Lexus trying to do the best decision cost wise to maximise market interest/sales. How do you really survive in a shrinking sedan market? It's a great question when buyer's tastes are shifting. You prove that you do belong with year to year sales growth and realizing a global sales footprint. The GS wasn't cutting it, so the mfg costs of supporting it became slimmer with every poor sales month. Toyota management is becoming wiser by going lean to survive any downturn.
This is a fantastic picture comparison! Had no idea how similar they were. The GS F has some questionable styling elements where the ES F has improved on.
At the end of the day, making the ES an easier sell has been accomplished. The debate about FWD gets silly. Maybe down the road, we will see a special performance variant of ES to test the waters of 25% more HP or more and AWD/RWD options. For the general market FWD will suffice. FWD is always a better car in snow than RWD, Hence AWD > FWD > RWD in snow. Cant really make everyone happy and it's Toyota/Lexus trying to do the best decision cost wise to maximise market interest/sales. How do you really survive in a shrinking sedan market? It's a great question when buyer's tastes are shifting. You prove that you do belong with year to year sales growth and realizing a global sales footprint. The GS wasn't cutting it, so the mfg costs of supporting it became slimmer with every poor sales month. Toyota management is becoming wiser by going lean to survive any downturn.
I find your statement interesting, but how does one explain the return on investment for Toyota’s GA-L platform? Logically manufacturers like Daimler-Benz build scalable rear wheel drive platform that can be sliced and diced up to accommodate compact, medium and large cars therefore spreading the cost of development across multiple models in their lineup. This strategy foots the $1 billion plus dollar bill that the companies typically spend in engineering the platform. Companies usually use these platforms for 10-14 year spans before they retire them all together.
Toyota has spent over $1 billion dollars developing the GA-L scalable platform and to date they only have two cars riding on the platform both of them are very low volume models. (e.i. LS and LC)
It is expected Toyota will launch the RWD Lexus IS in 2021.
It is expected Toyota will launch their RWD home market midsize Crown in 2019.
It is expected Toyota will launch their RWD home market midsize Mark X in 2020.
Now it is fact that the GS shares 100% of its mechanical design with the Asian market only Mark X and Crown.
These vehicles development cost has already been spent and we’ve seen the next gen Crown being tested in Germany going around the Nurburgring. Something doesn’t add up here! What’s going on within the deep bowels of Toyota? Why not spend a few million dollars more to throw together one more (GS) half steel, half aluminum body kit to further help spread the cost of their $1 billion plus investment and make it easier to receive a return on their investment even faster than what it would take to do it without GS model in existence. Also Toyota has spent a lot of investment dollars conjuring up this new Gazoo Racing Program which is suppose to be playing a key role in the development of Toyota and Lexus future sporty cars which include the yet to debut Supra and future Lexus turbocharged F models.
I understand your statement, but if what your saying is true. It makes Toyota Management look like their making rash decisions. Summoning chief engineering squads to develop $1 billion dollar RWD platforms with no forseable way to pay for the development cost in a timely fashion.
It only makes logical sense that Toyota has more rear wheel drive vehicles in development than what we are aware of at this moment. The LC, LS, and IS along with the mediocre selling Mark X and Crown just don’t seem like enough vehicles being sold to justify the trouble they went through to design a scalable RWD platform this expensive. Only time will tell.
In my opinion it makes since to build a second gen RC and GS or GS replacement to really spread that development cost out a little bit further.
Toyoda was never fond of Lexus, I don't think he understands premium segment, maybe he doesn't want to be a part of it or he simply is bean counting into oblivion. He does like performance cars which unfortunately have nothing to do with premium segment and badges or Lexus. He is also the one behind GS downward spiral, 4GS couldn't be what was supposed to be cause he didn't believe in it and he cut off the funding so the team had many obstacles they had to overcome with just know-how. That didn't affect the sales much mainly because of more global markets it was offed for sale compared to previous GS generations but it served as an excuse for Toyoda to cancel it. And refresh low sales have nothing to do with "it was received poorly" but instead it was purposeful slow down of manufacturing line. 4GS was sabotaged on every front by Toyota highest ranking officers. LC will see the same fate, they will blame the slow sales and how ultra-premium experiment didn't work out for them in terms of numbers. LC is already crippled by stone age V8 and dark age hybrid V6 that was conceived in 3GS dozen years ago and funny enough budget for it's evolution in 4GS was cut off so all they could have done is to switch to Atkinson instead of improving the electrical motors, components and batteries. As an example LCh should have debuted with second gen li-on batteries and controllers if 4GS was given that chance like it was promised. Hampering 4GS development had consequences across the board not just for GS line. Instead they fitted cheap 4spd auto into already complex synergy transmission just to have something new to tell you about it.
It's very definite that Lexus is going into a tier with Infiniti and Acura within 5 years, less than their model life cycle. Audi will overtake them in US by then and their portfolio of vehicles will still lag behind Germans. Company that debates should they build a Toyota reskin seven seater or genuine RWD coupe convertible is not a premium automotive company. Something is terribly wrong within Lexus and it mostly shows in continuity which suggest there is a struggle going on inside. LS was way too late, RC was built from ground up to be both hardtop and convertible, GS was on schedule then canceled, they cannot make RWD portfolio desirable as they keep constraining the budget when it comes to PU development, relying on Toyota cars to reskin them to make the business case and so on.
All of that might work for Lexus as it works for Infiniti and Acura too but that is not Tier 1 luxury operation.
Lexus has conceded the premium product game and buyers will see through their Toyota reskins just like they've seen through mother of all reskins GM and their product line. If they were not able to sell a 100K product in the past, today within just one lifecycle of seven years they will not be able to sell a 80K product and within a decade and a half they will be stuck with 60K ceiling just like Infiniti and Acura.
In order for Lexus to prosper they need independent management led by a single passionate person cut off from the Toyota business bean counting culture entirely. They just need access to Toyota funds, maybe some critical technology, manufacturing line and nothing more. They need separate platform and PU development (both ICE, Hybrid, PHEV and BEV) with their own R&D inventions, findings and conclusions. This means independent Lexus would bleed Toyota's money for quite some time but after it all settles they would be banking and more importantly be competitive in true premium segment.
If I recall correctly, it is not that he doesnt like Lexus. What he doesnt like is how Lexus is being perceived within and outside the company. Within the company, Lexus was treated as a distribution channel of luxury Toyotas outside of Japan. He didnt like that and that is why he personally took charge of Lexus. Outside the company, we know the bland and boring image...
I find your statement interesting, but how does one explain the return on investment for Toyota’s GA-L platform? Logically manufacturers like Daimler-Benz build scalable rear wheel drive platform that can be sliced and diced up to accommodate compact, medium and large cars therefore spreading the cost of development across multiple models in their lineup. This strategy foots the $1 billion plus dollar bill that the companies typically spend in engineering the platform. Companies usually use these platforms for 10-14 year spans before they retire them all together.
Toyota has spent over $1 billion dollars developing the GA-L scalable platform and to date they only have two cars riding on the platform both of them are very low volume models. (e.i. LS and LC)
It is expected Toyota will launch the RWD Lexus IS in 2021.
It is expected Toyota will launch their RWD home market midsize Crown in 2019.
It is expected Toyota will launch their RWD home market midsize Mark X in 2020.
Now it is fact that the GS shares 100% of its mechanical design with the Asian market only Mark X and Crown.
These vehicles development cost has already been spent and we’ve seen the next gen Crown being tested in Germany going around the Nurburgring. Something doesn’t add up here! What’s going on within the deep bowels of Toyota? Why not spend a few million dollars more to throw together one more (GS) half steel, half aluminum body kit to further help spread the cost of their $1 billion plus investment and make it easier to receive a return on their investment even faster than what it would take to do it without GS model in existence. Also Toyota has spent a lot of investment dollars conjuring up this new Gazoo Racing Program which is suppose to be playing a key role in the development of Toyota and Lexus future sporty cars which include the yet to debut Supra and future Lexus turbocharged F models.
I understand your statement, but if what your saying is true. It makes Toyota Management look like their making rash decisions. Summoning chief engineering squads to develop $1 billion dollar RWD platforms with no forseable way to pay for the development cost in a timely fashion.
It only makes logical sense that Toyota has more rear wheel drive vehicles in development than what we are aware of at this moment. The LC, LS, and IS along with the mediocre selling Mark X and Crown just don’t seem like enough vehicles being sold to justify the trouble they went through to design a scalable RWD platform this expensive. Only time will tell.
In my opinion it makes since to build a second gen RC and GS or GS replacement to really spread that development cost out a little bit further.
Outside of building cars, you have to market it, certify it, service it, ship it, production lines, pay people, development specific components for different markets and etc.
Yup. Platform might cost only 1bil but model like GS requires at least 2bil to setup. But then again I'm pretty much sure Toyota knows that developing the platform is not the final investment and I'm pretty much sure they know in order to get something out of it they need a whole fleet of RWD models and engines to make it sustainable and to guarantee big improvements in next generation development. Conclusion: Toyota is not committed to RWD at all, they are making it for special occasions cause they can afford it. They are also not committed to AWD either as they are the single largest manufacturer that doesn't have a tricked out advanced AWD system in their car and car-based SUV portfolio.
This is a fantastic picture comparison! Had no idea how similar they were. The GS F has some questionable styling elements where the ES F has improved on.
At the end of the day, making the ES an easier sell has been accomplished. The debate about FWD gets silly. Maybe down the road, we will see a special performance variant of ES to test the waters of 25% more HP or more and AWD/RWD options. For the general market FWD will suffice. FWD is always a better car in snow than RWD, Hence AWD > FWD > RWD in snow. Cant really make everyone happy and it's Toyota/Lexus trying to do the best decision cost wise to maximise market interest/sales. How do you really survive in a shrinking sedan market? It's a great question when buyer's tastes are shifting. You prove that you do belong with year to year sales growth and realizing a global sales footprint. The GS wasn't cutting it, so the mfg costs of supporting it became slimmer with every poor sales month. Toyota management is becoming wiser by going lean to survive any downturn.
Originally Posted by situman
Outside of building cars, you have to market it, certify it, service it, ship it, production lines, pay people, development specific components for different markets and etc.
I’m fully aware of the all the cost involved in getting a vehicle into a customers driveway. I work for a large marketing company that just happens to have a rather large account with Toyota Motor Sales.
Still doesn’t explain how Toyota is planning to pay for the development cost of the scalable GA-L platform.
Yup. Platform might cost only 1bil but model like GS requires at least 2bil to setup. But then again I'm pretty much sure Toyota knows that developing the platform is not the final investment and I'm pretty much sure they know in order to get something out of it they need a whole fleet of RWD models and engines to make it sustainable and to guarantee big improvements in next generation development. Conclusion: Toyota is not committed to RWD at all, they are making it for special occasions cause they can afford it. They are also not committed to AWD either as they are the single largest manufacturer that doesn't have a tricked out advanced AWD system in their car and car-based SUV portfolio.
Please elaborate more on your claims that Toyota isn’t innovative in advanced 4WD technology? I’m very happy with the AWD system in my 4GS, gets me through the worst blizzards conditions with no trouble every time. My previous vehicle was a 2010 Mercedes with 4matic and I wouldn’t call that AWD advanced at all. I have to say I was throughly impressed by my 2007 Infiniti G37X, but it wasn’t that fuel efficient and quite honestly it’s launches on dry pavement were nice, but so is my 4GS on Conti DWS06’s tires.
I’m going to assume you haven’t found time to read the 2019 RAV4 press release which says next RAV4 is going to offer three separate AWD systems. The basic system for the plebian driver and newly developed advanced system similar to Acura’s SH-AWD with torque vectoring which will be available on the top trim level model. The final system being a hybrid setup with a more efficient and more powerful rear AC electric traction motor.
We agree on a lot of topics, but I have to partially disagree with your “Camry Poser statement”. Yes the Camry might look like it’s trying too hard to be “hip” to the average car enthusiast. Almost like a 45 year old dad dressed in skinny leg jeans. But with sedan sales declining overall in the North American market Toyota designers and engineers had to throw everything they had at the Camry to make it appeal to those 3 box sedan buyers who might otherwise choose a SUV because they found it to meh.
The Camry handles pretty well, it’s actaully not a bad ride for a car riding on 19” rims. For many the Camry XSE V6 is the closest many American car buyers will ever get to being behind the wheel of a sporty car. People are excited about the 2018 Camry and enthusiastic to buy one. Now depending on how you interpid the phrase “Poser” are you talking about the car or the owner behind the wheel? The owner is not at all trying to be a poser, they simply can’t. It’s a Camry at the end of the day.
Now grant it when I see one pull up next to me in my GS F Sport I’m like damn that’s a nice Camry! Would I buy one, probably not, does the owner feel proud to own their Camry XSE I’m pretty sure they do. My definition of a poser might be different than yours. I feel a poser is a guy in $400k Lamborghini Aventador SV who doesn’t know a damn thing about the car, but knows it’s fast and loud and it turns heads. I just don’t find the Camry capable of posing nor it’s owner. If anything I find the ES more of poser, it’s trying to be something it’s not and the same could potentially be said for some of its owners.
I agree $50k is way too much to be paying for a FWD vehicle. But considering that the average transaction price for a ES will be between $40-$45k I’m sure Lexus is anticipating only a 5-8% of ES customers opting for the top spec $55k ES ultra.
Hey Rev!
I agree. With sedan sales declining, Toyota had to do what they had to do to make the Camry more appealing. But I would argue, the current 2018 Camry XSE V6 would sell just as hot without the fake diffuser or fake quad-exhaust. My biggest issue is the quad exhaust - two of the pipes are fake. Two of them are blocked out at the back of the tip. Essentially - this Camry XSE V6 is a dual exhaust but with quad-exhaust cosmetics. They could have just gave the Camry XSE two real pipes and call it a day because a Camry doesn't need quad-exhaust. It'll still sell like hot-cakes. So in my opinion: a fake quad-exhaust Camry without the performance to back it up seems a bit "rice" and "poser".
Basically - the 2018 Camry XSE V6 is trying too hard to be something its not so that's why I think its a poser. The Camry XSE V6 is affordable daily driven family car but Toyota is making it seem like a family sports car that you can bring to the track with quad-exhaust (which two of them are fake.)
True. I agree. A Lambo owner that doesn't crap about cars and acting like he/she does because he/she owns a Lambo is a poser. However - I also think a Camry XSE V6 owner is capable of that too. A 2018 Camry XSE V6 owner can know nothing about cars and only bought the Camry because he/she thinks its fast and sporty now and wants to drag all the Mustangs they see.
Agreed. The Lexus ES F-Sport could definitely be a poser. The Lexus ES has always about comfort and space, not really "sport".
I agree. Majority of sales of the Lexus ES will be in the low to high 40Ks. I personally still think that's too much for a FWD. Anything over 30 grand is pretty much outrageous for a FWD - in my opinion.
I also think the ES Non F-Sport will be the most sold as well. I doubt much people will buy the F-Sport ES.
Originally Posted by spwolf
F-Sport take on all of those modes is surprisingly large...and since ES F-Sport should be even more different than regular models due to suspension setup, I suspect there will be large take of ES F-Sport models too.
Also for other people - if you are clamoring for European vehicles for RWD, lets recognize European traditions such as sports FWD vehicles. We dont have much problem with having sporty FWD drive like Americans do, which is funny, who is poser then?
Our German reviews of FWD vehicles dont start and end with torque steer when you floor the 300 hp sedan. And we have so many great handling FWD cars. Heck most Audi's these days are FWD, and you dont read anything about torque steer when comparing them to 3 series or C or 5 or E.
I don't think anyone said FWD sports cars are poser. A Civic Type R isn't a poser car but a Camry XSE V6/Lexus ES F-Sport is.
Audi offers longitudinal FWD on all their vehicles but 2. (These 2 are transverse FWD.) Longitudinal FWD is better than transverse FWD because it behaves more like RWD. Also - majority of sales for Audi is vehicles sold with quattro. When reviews compare the Audi A4 to the 3 Series, C300 and etc... They are using the quattro model, not the FWD model.
Originally Posted by chromedome
And if someone wants a Camry with 19" wheels and quad exhausts, who am I to judge? The same could be said of an F-sport ES. I used to be into modding so I understand how some people want to personalize their cars. Otherwise we'd all be driving gray Ladas...
I don't think the Camry's 19" wheels are a problem. I think the Camry XSE's fake diffuser and fake quad-exhaust is a problem. Why does a FWD family sedan need fake quad-exhaust and fake rear diffuser? I guess some people think it looks good but I think it looks stupid. I think the Camry XSE V6 would have been better with a dual exhaust system that's real so it doesn't look its trying to pose. Sales numbers would likely be the same and it'll still look just as good - just not "ricer".
Originally Posted by EZZ
The Audi's that come with 300+ hp have Quattro. The fwd versions of the A4 come in dead last in its class in handling vs the 3 Series, C class, Caddy ATS, Lexus IS and the Jag. I can't think of a German sedan these days that gets near 300hp without AWD. The only FWD cars that handle great are the lighter compacts such as the GTI. I think the Germans have mostly recognized the limitations of FWD and high horsepower so AWD is now becoming the standard. The ES in this regard may be a dying breed and last of the high horsepower FWD vehicles.
+1. Agreed. Majority of the high power Audi's are quattro based set up. A car with high HP/TQ can't handle FWD unless its purposely set up for it like the Civic Type R.
Agreed again. Majority of great handling FWD cars are preppy light hatch-backs, like I mentioned before.
It could be a dying breed - not sure though. There's still a couple of cars on the market with V6 FWD set-up.
Originally Posted by Vladi
Toyoda was never fond of Lexus, I don't think he understands premium segment, maybe he doesn't want to be a part of it or he simply is bean counting into oblivion. He does like performance cars which unfortunately have nothing to do with premium segment and badges or Lexus. He is also the one behind GS downward spiral, 4GS couldn't be what was supposed to be cause he didn't believe in it and he cut off the funding so the team had many obstacles they had to overcome with just know-how. That didn't affect the sales much mainly because of more global markets it was offed for sale compared to previous GS generations but it served as an excuse for Toyoda to cancel it. And refresh low sales have nothing to do with "it was received poorly" but instead it was purposeful slow down of manufacturing line. 4GS was sabotaged on every front by Toyota highest ranking officers. LC will see the same fate, they will blame the slow sales and how ultra-premium experiment didn't work out for them in terms of numbers. LC is already crippled by stone age V8 and dark age hybrid V6 that was conceived in 3GS dozen years ago and funny enough budget for it's evolution in 4GS was cut off so all they could have done is to switch to Atkinson instead of improving the electrical motors, components and batteries. As an example LCh should have debuted with second gen li-on batteries and controllers if 4GS was given that chance like it was promised. Hampering 4GS development had consequences across the board not just for GS line. Instead they fitted cheap 4spd auto into already complex synergy transmission just to have something new to tell you about it.
In order for Lexus to prosper they need independent management led by a single passionate person cut off from the Toyota business bean counting culture entirely. They just need access to Toyota funds, maybe some critical technology, manufacturing line and nothing more. They need separate platform and PU development (both ICE, Hybrid, PHEV and BEV) with their own R&D inventions, findings and conclusions. This means independent Lexus would bleed Toyota's money for quite some time but after it all settles they would be banking and more importantly be competitive in true premium segment.
I don't think its true when you said Toyoda isn't fond of Lexus. I believe it was Akio's uncle that founded Lexus. If anything, he cares more than you know. Toyota is still one a few car companies left that is still ran with majority of its family having control.
I don't like how conservative Toyota/Lexus are with their vehicles and I agree Lexus should try new ideas instead of counting numbers. However - I think Lexus will make money following a conservative strategy than not. There is a reason why TMC is rich as hell.
Originally Posted by highrev6
I find your statement interesting, but how does one explain the return on investment for Toyota’s GA-L platform? Logically manufacturers like Daimler-Benz build scalable rear wheel drive platform that can be sliced and diced up to accommodate compact, medium and large cars therefore spreading the cost of development across multiple models in their lineup. This strategy foots the $1 billion plus dollar bill that the companies typically spend in engineering the platform. Companies usually use these platforms for 10-14 year spans before they retire them all together.
Toyota has spent over $1 billion dollars developing the GA-L scalable platform and to date they only have two cars riding on the platform both of them are very low volume models. (e.i. LS and LC)
It is expected Toyota will launch the RWD Lexus IS in 2021.
It is expected Toyota will launch their RWD home market midsize Crown in 2019.
It is expected Toyota will launch their RWD home market midsize Mark X in 2020.
Now it is fact that the GS shares 100% of its mechanical design with the Asian market only Mark X and Crown.
These vehicles development cost has already been spent and we’ve seen the next gen Crown being tested in Germany going around the Nurburgring. Something doesn’t add up here! What’s going on within the deep bowels of Toyota? Why not spend a few million dollars more to throw together one more (GS) half steel, half aluminum body kit to further help spread the cost of their $1 billion plus investment and make it easier to receive a return on their investment even faster than what it would take to do it without GS model in existence. Also Toyota has spent a lot of investment dollars conjuring up this new Gazoo Racing Program which is suppose to be playing a key role in the development of Toyota and Lexus future sporty cars which include the yet to debut Supra and future Lexus turbocharged F models.
I understand your statement, but if what your saying is true. It makes Toyota Management look like their making rash decisions. Summoning chief engineering squads to develop $1 billion dollar RWD platforms with no forseable way to pay for the development cost in a timely fashion.
It only makes logical sense that Toyota has more rear wheel drive vehicles in development than what we are aware of at this moment. The LC, LS, and IS along with the mediocre selling Mark X and Crown just don’t seem like enough vehicles being sold to justify the trouble they went through to design a scalable RWD platform this expensive. Only time will tell.
In my opinion it makes since to build a second gen RC and GS or GS replacement to really spread that development cost out a little bit further.
Agreed. It takes tons and tons of cash to make a new platform and the typical platform use is at least 2 generation of cars in order to make it worth it.
This is why I also think there will be more cars coming onto the GA-L platform. They can't just leave the LC and LS there. Sure, the Lexus IS will make it there one day but it'll be just three vehicles? This is why I also think the Lexus GS could still be alive. If only Lexus made the ES on the GA-L platform instead of the Camry/Avalon one, slap it with a RWD and a TTV6.
Please elaborate more on your claims that Toyota isn’t innovative in advanced 4WD technology? I’m very happy with the AWD system in my 4GS, gets me through the worst blizzards conditions with no trouble every time. My previous vehicle was a 2010 Mercedes with 4matic and I wouldn’t call that AWD advanced at all. I have to say I was throughly impressed by my 2007 Infiniti G37X, but it wasn’t that fuel efficient and quite honestly it’s launches on dry pavement were nice, but so is my 4GS on Conti DWS06’s tires.
I’m going to assume you haven’t found time to read the 2019 RAV4 press release which says next RAV4 is going to offer three separate AWD systems. The basic system for the plebian driver and newly developed advanced system similar to Acura’s SH-AWD with torque vectoring which will be available on the top trim level model. The final system being a hybrid setup with a more efficient and more powerful rear AC electric traction motor.
Not to mention BmWs AWD isn't that great either. Lose a lot of handling feel when you get the AWD version. I'm a fan of the Audi Quattro and the Nissan versions. I'm okay with Toyota but I think you lose handling feel like the BMW.
Please elaborate more on your claims that Toyota isn’t innovative in advanced 4WD technology? I’m very happy with the AWD system in my 4GS, gets me through the worst blizzards conditions with no trouble every time. My previous vehicle was a 2010 Mercedes with 4matic and I wouldn’t call that AWD advanced at all. I have to say I was throughly impressed by my 2007 Infiniti G37X, but it wasn’t that fuel efficient and quite honestly it’s launches on dry pavement were nice, but so is my 4GS on Conti DWS06’s tires.
I’m going to assume you haven’t found time to read the 2019 RAV4 press release which says next RAV4 is going to offer three separate AWD systems. The basic system for the plebian driver and newly developed advanced system similar to Acura’s SH-AWD with torque vectoring which will be available on the top trim level model. The final system being a hybrid setup with a more efficient and more powerful rear AC electric traction motor.
Hey Rev!
We agree on many things but I'm going to have to be out-of-the-box for this agreement.
While I think its great Toyota is offering 3 types of AWD system on the RAV4, Toyota's AWD technology isn't as good as the more proven AWD systems in the market. I don't think Toyota AWD is bad. I just don't think its just as advance, polished or refined as Audi Quattro, Acura SH-AWD, and Subaru Symmetrical AWD.
I think what the other guy was trying to say was Toyota/Lexus doesn't have a "it" AWD system. A system that is named and can be marketed. IE: Quattro, SH-AWD, Symmetrical AWD, xDrive, 4matic, and etc...
I’m fully aware of the all the cost involved in getting a vehicle into a customers driveway. I work for a large marketing company that just happens to have a rather large account with Toyota Motor Sales.
Still doesn’t explain how Toyota is planning to pay for the development cost of the scalable GA-L platform.
No one said they have to pay for it all in one go. They can amortize it over 10yrs or whatever they think the lifespan is of the platform. Secondly, the Camry alone will be enough to pay for all the variations of the TNGA platform.
No one said they have to pay for it all in one go. They can amortize it over 10yrs or whatever they think the lifespan is of the platform. Secondly, the Camry alone will be enough to pay for all the variations of the TNGA platform.
Why would you burden the Camry ROI with the RWD architecture development? Toyota will look to drive a higher return on the RWD platform by using it on new cars or crossovers. Wouldn't be surprised if they released a sporty crossover to compete better with the X3. I also think they will increase the size of the IS if they kill the GS. I just hope they release a higher end IS to better compete against the S4 and a true ISF in the 4th gen.
04-27-18, 06:03 AM
. But you can get torque steer in any diesel still, if you just stomp the gas pedal like there is no tomorrow, you can always feel your front end getting lighter to some extent. But thats FWD and is expected.
