When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
The thing is, it wouldn't take much engineering to add a larger PHEV battery pack. If Hyundai, Kia, BMW, VW/Porsche and Ford can do it, why can't Toyota? The new ES puts the battery pack under the rear seats; extra cells could go behind the rear seat like the old ES. Making a PHEV isn't rocket science as Toyota already has the Prius Prime.
Knowing how conservative TMC is, I think they won't bother with PHEVs. They'll probably go straight for BEVs, first using lithium ion packs and later on using that magic solid state cell they've been working on. Interestingly, Toyota used lithium ion cells on the base spec Camry hybrid for weight reduction and not for density. The other hybrids still use NiMH for longevity.
Yes, I don't think there'll ever be an ESp PHEV.
I think TMC will go straight for a ESe EV - because it's better & cheaper that way - however they may lose some sales during the interim.
I suspect the new TNGA modular architectures will make it easier to use ICE or EV drivelines.
Disagree if you want. It's my opinion, and you can have yours.
If the IS retains the 311hp 3.5L V6 then its doubtful they'll upgrade the 2.0T. If they manage to put a detuned 3.5L TTV6 in there, there's a better chance of the upgrade.
Lexus also changed two powertrains on the GS between 2006-2007. 2006 GS300 and GS430 to the 2007 GS350 and GS460. So anything is possible.
But as for right now, the 2.0T is not needed in the 7ES hence its omission.
Ahh! I didn't mean any offense. I'm just disagreeing based on my opinions. Of course - this is car chat and everyone is allowed to have their opinions.
I just believe, being how slow Toyota actually switched up engines, they'll likely keep the AR Turbo and the 311HP V6 on the Lexus IS. However - I do agree with you. Anything can happen and Lexus can switch things up - just like they did with the GS.
But it back to the ES - yeah, the ES doesn't need a I4 Turbo. I believe it has to do with pricing (Lexus doesn't want it to start any lower) and because the Avalon doesn't have a I4 Turbo.
The thing is, it wouldn't take much engineering to add a larger PHEV battery pack. If Hyundai, Kia, BMW, VW/Porsche and Ford can do it, why can't Toyota? The new ES puts the battery pack under the rear seats; extra cells could go behind the rear seat like the old ES. Making a PHEV isn't rocket science as Toyota already has the Prius Prime.
Knowing how conservative TMC is, I think they won't bother with PHEVs. They'll probably go straight for BEVs, first using lithium ion packs and later on using that magic solid state cell they've been working on. Interestingly, Toyota used lithium ion cells on the base spec Camry hybrid for weight reduction and not for density. The other hybrids still use NiMH for longevity.
BMW/Kia/MB PHEVs are not as complex hybrids as Toyota's Synergy Drive but they do get the job done. And then you have to ask yourself a question did Hybrid Synergy Drive hit the wall as it's still expensive for what it is (4 cylinder hybrid costs as much as V6 without V6 performance but also without electric-only range). Toyota has the smoothest hybrid drivetrain as it all works as one unit, no other manufacturer has achieved that yet but what others have achieved is 30 miles per charge drivetrain in SUV, premium mid size sedan, etc.
Another thing that hampers the PHEV implementation in Toyota is their stack of NiMH batteries which they've obviously overstocked their inventory with, they just can't get rid of them. Either that or they are way behind in lithium ion technology. Remember 4GS was supposed to debut Li-ion batteries but it didn't happen until LC500h.
Whatever it is Toyota is way behind in PHEV and BEV development as well as in turbo implementations. All those years where they were milking the cow from mid '00s to mid '10 has finally caught them with no pants on. We were just reading yesterday how Toyoda is expediting BEV development and hiring people left and right. Good thing is they have money to make expedited development work, bad news is they will still be the last large manufacturer to come out with BEV product and you can bet the first BEV will be like the first Prius Prime.
With available finances they should have been able to cover up every single spectrum of the future from mild-hybrids, full featured-hybrids, PHEV, BEV, FC and be the first one to roll out the product but I guess their vision got impaired because they thought they were untouchable at one point and that they will dictate the future of the industry. Their synergy hybrid system was developed at great pace until Watanabe and whole bean counting culture he brought in took over. From that point on their hybrid synergy didn't go nowhere and it was just a marketing ploy, I swear to god they wanted to do the same with FC development but they found out how seriously this new tech really will change the landscape of automotive industry so they had quick change of hearts.
If one bankrupt Mitsubishi was able to develop state of the art PHEV drivetrain and implement it in affordable CUV package there are no excuses for Toyota.
I'd say it's Toyota's conservative attitude that has kept them from pursuing PHEVs and lithium ion packs because they want cars to last beyond five or even ten years. Prius and Camry hybrids have no issue making it past ten years on the original NiMH battery pack whereas Nissan had a terrible time with battery degradation on the Leaf in hot climates. Once Toyota got comfortable with hybrids and electrification, they rolled it out throughout their lineup but that took a decade.
The flipside is that PHEVs are a stepping stone towards BEVs. I've always thought PHEVs are a poor compromise in large cars - the added weight of a large battery pack and the need to downsize the engine meant poor overall efficiency on a depleted battery, unless you only drive within the electric range every day.
I've got an X5e in the family and it's a gas guzzler when the tiny electric range runs out and the 2.0 turbo has to haul 2400 kg of metal. My ES hybrid runs about 1600 kg and I still get 40-50 mpg in urban driving without the hassle of a plugin pack.
BMW/Kia/MB PHEVs are not as complex hybrids as Toyota's Synergy Drive but they do get the job done. And then you have to ask yourself a question did Hybrid Synergy Drive hit the wall as it's still expensive for what it is (4 cylinder hybrid costs as much as V6 without V6 performance but also without electric-only range). Toyota has the smoothest hybrid drivetrain as it all works as one unit, no other manufacturer has achieved that yet but what others have achieved is 30 miles per charge drivetrain in SUV, premium mid size sedan, etc.
Another thing that hampers the PHEV implementation in Toyota is their stack of NiMH batteries which they've obviously overstocked their inventory with, they just can't get rid of them. Either that or they are way behind in lithium ion technology. Remember 4GS was supposed to debut Li-ion batteries but it didn't happen until LC500h.
Whatever it is Toyota is way behind in PHEV and BEV development as well as in turbo implementations. All those years where they were milking the cow from mid '00s to mid '10 has finally caught them with no pants on. We were just reading yesterday how Toyoda is expediting BEV development and hiring people left and right. Good thing is they have money to make expedited development work, bad news is they will still be the last large manufacturer to come out with BEV product and you can bet the first BEV will be like the first Prius Prime.
Problem with your thinking is that it is mostly based on PR.
Toyota actually sells hybrids, other manufacturers mostly PR hybrids, evs and phevs. They use nimh because it is cheaper or longer lasting or whatever for them, and because they sold 1.5m hybrids last year, vs all germans together probably doing 8x-10x less combined. Toyota has to make sure they are profitable with hybrids because they are major part of their sales while others do PRs but dont actually sell many hybrids or phevs.
Germans barely sell any phevs in China, or any new energy vehicles... While TMC has 6 models in top 20.
First EV from Toyota in China will be C-HR... if C-HR has been engineered to accept full EV powertrain, so is rest of TNGA lineup. C-HR EV will be shown by the end of the year and will start sales soon after. Toyota will start sales of Corolla PHEV based on Prime tech by the end of the year in China. It will likely become best selling PHEV in the country soon after.
And Toyota will start selling 10 EVs in China by 2020... I assume this will be TNGA vehicles and we are talking about 2 years max from now, so we will know most of the lineup within next 12 months.
So they are not left behind at all, they are going to lead the pack as with everything hybrid. Unfortunately sales actually show that all that we have been told in PRs about China and EV sales is a myth or a lie. There is not a SINGLE german EV/PHEV/Hybrid in China thats in Top 20 right now.
People who are 60yrs old +, don't want SUV, comfort, reliability, current ES owners, current Camry/Avalon owners, want luxury brand car but at value price......
New ES will sell but it doesn't move the bar at all for luxury cars in any way.
Lexus has moved away from producing cars with industry leading features.
People who are 60yrs old +, don't want SUV, comfort, reliability, current ES owners, current Camry/Avalon owners, want luxury brand car but at value price......
Which is what I figured and that identifies the problem, right? Automakers aren't targeting sedans to the younger generation. This vehicle is targeting a market that is getting smaller and their demand for buying vehicles is decreasing. For instance, my dad is 66, retired, and has 26k miles on his 2012 E350. No intention of buying another car. I'm 31. I might be more interested in an ES if it offered a PHEV option and/or AWD. I don't need 300 HP through the front wheels.
So for anyone who is interested. Was watching the reviews as the new Avalon reviews are starting to appear. Although the reviews are based on FWD models, there is a RWD hump in the back in the middle seat. I am assuming the new ES will be equipped with AWD in the second year of production
So for anyone who is interested. Was watching the reviews as the new Avalon reviews are starting to appear. Although the reviews are based on FWD models, there is a RWD hump in the back in the middle seat. I am assuming the new ES will be equipped with AWD in the second year of production
FYI, I had two ES's, a 2003 ES300 and a 2010 ES350, both had humps in the rear floorpan. Thats not evidence of an AWD version, you have exhaust etc heading to the back.
FYI, I had two ES's, a 2003 ES300 and a 2010 ES350, both had humps in the rear floorpan. Thats not evidence of an AWD version, you have exhaust etc heading to the back.
97 ES, see the hump?
03 ES, see the hump?:
12 ES, see the hump:
13 ES, see the hump?:
19 ES, same hump:
Nah. AWD is coming to the ES. Toyota executives during the Auto Show launch of the Avalon confirmed that the Avalon is capable of AWD in the future if needed.
04-27-18, 11:06 PM
