arentz07

+1, you can be a car enthusiast, maybe even a driving enthusiast, and enjoy driving an ES, Lacrosse, and other luxury-focused cars. But, a driver's car is one that is involving and rewarding to drive. It's not like every time I drive, I want to put the pedal to the metal or hear my tires squeal - sedate, relaxed driving cars certainly have their place. And that's where the ES comes in. Funny that they are playing up the sporty aspect of the car this time, considering the non-driver's-car personality of it.

situman

The Dynamic Force V6 was supposed to offer low end torque combined with high end horsepower which the previous 2GR lacked. To get maximum performance, you still have to rev the nuts out of it. The ES is expected to be heavier than both the Camry and Avalon and we are looking at a 6 to 6.1s 0-60 performance. So far the V6, while powerful, is a bit less dynamicy or forcy than expected. It is strange that a brand new engine like this can't exceed an over 10yr old 2GR with its 306hp.

BippuLexus

Yeah. I was looking at performance test and independent reviews. The 8 speed gearbox definitely hurt the performance figures. The older 6 speed gearbox just had more aggressive gearing - that's why the older Lexus IS350 was so quick.

Toyota/Lexus is playing up the "sportiness" of all their cars as of late. They were marketing the 2018 Camry as a "sporty" Camry. I test drove a Camry XSE V6 and it drove like a typical Camry.

I think the real thing going on here is - Toyota/Lexus aren't more sporty when it comes to driving, just more sporty when it comes to looks. Its expected this 7G Lexus ES will not be sporty at all and drive like the 6G Lexus ES. Toyota/Lexus will pretty much keep the same formula because they want to keep those sales numbers. I don't believe the Lexus ES buyer demographic would like a sporty driving ES.

Funny because its true. There are people that see MB and BMW in a different light.

I'm confused. Toyota/Lexus doesn't have a Dynamic Force V6 yet. They only have a Dynamic Force Inline 2.5L Inline 4 (available on the Camry).

The 7G Lexus ES runs the same 2GR-FKS that's on the Camry, Avalon and GS but they are all tuned differently. The 7GS Lexus ES 2GR-FKS has 302HP, Camry/Avalon has 301HP, and the GS has 311HP.

This 2GR-FKS is 3 years old and was introduced in 2015. While the 2GR-FKS should have a huge performance gain over the older 2GR-FSE, this isn't what Toyota/Lexus likes to do. When has Toyota/Lexus ever offered a massive gain in performance with each new engine they release? Toyota/Lexus are conservative and they are slow moving on performance.

spwolf

- If you look at test track results from mags, yeah new Camry does handle much better than before. Weather you will notice it in quick drive on normal road, who knows.
- Avalon also rides much better than before, same platform as ES, ES gets more features so F-Sport will be tuned sportier too.
- There is Dynamic Force 3.5l tt engine. Not sure that they will make same engine without turbos.

Case in point, in C/D test Camry XSE ... Look at the results, I would say difference is HUGE, in both skid pad and braking. I would also guess than 2018 is more comfortable too.

Avalon improves with AVS, which allows for firmer suspension. ES improves even more with performance vibration dampers.

2017 Camry XSE
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 6.1 sec
Braking, 70-0 mph: 189 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.79 g

2018 Camry XSE
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 5.8 sec
Braking, 70-0 mph: 167 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.87 g

BippuLexus

Of course. On a average drive around normal roads I will not notice the Camry's slight improvements. You mentioned the Camry is getting better results on the skid pad, which is true but who really drives a Camry in a way where skid pad numbers matter. The Camry, while improved, still handles like a Camry. My point is - its not enough.

The Lexus ES might have a few more features than the Avalon but other than that they'll pretty stay the same. There will be things the Avalon has and there will be things that the Lexus ES has. Correct me if I'm mistaken but from the looks of the rear housing on the 7G Lexus ES - it doesn't even have rear LED turn signals while the Avalon runs sequential LED turn for front and rear.
I highly doubt the Lexus ES F-Sport will be sporty at all. For the most part, the Lexus F-Sport package is a cosmetics package. The Lexus ES F-Sport is about as sporty as a Lexus NX/UX F-Sport, which is not sporty. The main demographics of buyers will probably not care for the Lexus ES F-Sport. The idea was to lure young buyers to the Lexus ES with the F-Sport package. It might work because cosmetically it'll look amazing. But driving wise, I'll argue the F-Sport ES will drive like any other ES - especially with transverse FWD layout. Toyota/Lexus will try to stay within profit-lines because they don't want to mess up a winning formula.

The 0-60 time improvements are the results of just a faster engine.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

i'm sure the 740i and s450 are a lot heavier explaining the smallish speed advantage.

chromedome

Speaking of F-sports, looks like the latest ES shipment from Japan comes with crosshatched grilles like on the RX and NX F-Sport instead of boring bars. My dealer has these next to the new LS and they look boring... The new ES and LS look a lot more similar, I think Lexus will sell a ton of the new ES just on looks alone.

I think I know why Lexus moved to the new numbering scheme for the turbo engines. In markets like China, they sell the NX200 without the turbo. The RX200t and IS200t sound too similar so they've had their numbering bumped up to 300. Europe and China also get the IS300h and GS300h with the ES300h drivetrain. They've got decent power and excellent fuel efficiency, I wonder why the US doesn't get those models.

And to those complaining about the lack of a V8 on the LS, spare a thought for markets that only get the LS350 and LS500h. First world problems

BippuLexus

I wasn't knocking on the 740i and S450 speed or performance. It was more of a dramatic effect comparison because people were calling the Lexus GS slow compared to the Accord/Camry. There will always be economy car that are faster than luxury cars.

The latest ES shipment from Japan? The 7G Lexus ES isn't going to be made in Japan. The Lexus ES (USA) and Lexus RX (Canada) are the only two cars Lexus offers that aren't from Japan. The Lexus ES will be made along side the Toyota Camry and Avalon in TMMK in Kentucky.

The Lexus 200T numbers were removed and replaced with 300 because of marketing. Toyota decided it needed similar number sequences in order to match the Germans. With the BMW offering 320i, 330i and 340i and the Mercedes Benz offering C300 and C350, Toyota thought the Lexus IS200T would feel like a lower tier car because of the "200". Its psychological in the average consumer. IE: An average buyer would see a 320i and C300 and would automatically think they might be better than the Lexus because the numbers are bigger than the IS200T. <--- This happens because people associate a higher number as a more expensive/better car.
^^^This example alone already holds true with the IS200T and IS300 Turbo. People who don't know much about cars will think the IS300 Turbo is better than the IS200T but when in fact they are the same car. Its crazy how a number on a car change the perception of it to a buyer.

I believe the US-Market doesn't have the hybrid IS because there might be not enough demand for a entry-level luxury hybrid compact sport sedan.

chromedome

The current 6th gen ES300h, ES250 and ES200 are still made in Japan. Non-US markets like Europe, Russia and Asia get most of their Lexus models from Japan too. I guess the 7ES for the global market will also be made in Japan.

Sulu

You answered your own question, and as you yourself said, it is enough.

If there is one thing that Toyota knows, it is their customer base. Toyota knows what its customers want and knows how to give it to them. Toyota knows that its consumers are looking for a roomy, refined, reliable, cheap-to-operate family sedan. The Camry is what Toyota offers to these customers and it is what its customers want (as evidenced by sales), and has been what its North American customers have wanted for the past 20 years. Ironically, Toyota, a Japanese transplant, knows what the average North American family car customer wants better than Ford or Chevrolet!

Toyota knows that offering more dynamic ability may be possible but it probably won't sell any more of these more dynamic cars to its customer base. Very, very few of the Camry's potential customers are looking for a canyon carver; many, many, many more are looking for a comfortable cruiser. Why offer something that your customers are not asking for?

SW17LS

A couple years ago I would have said this was true, but in the last 4-5 years I would say Toyota/Lexus have lost track of what their customer base actually wants.

All4Lexus

Well said. Today's business going forward is sustainable sales and growth. There are too many choices to tempt buyers else where. Knowing your market and getting repeat sales, and word of mouth sales matters. Knowing how the service is done and pricing also matters (no absurd $1k-$3k maintenance charges every 10k miles) helps retain the positive car experience long after the purchase. Successful sales will say they are doing something right! This business is cutthroat as it is and most car makers are not in it to lose money. All signs are looking up that Lexus ES350'19 will turn out to be a better 'driving excitement' experience over the previous generation. Exceeding 300hp is a milestone worth noting with updated fuel injectors (not twin turbo tech). Customers want to be impressed and that leads to creating desire + interest in the car. Keep checking off those boxes Lexus!

mmarshall

Agreed. That has been the problem not only for the Camry, but for a number of other sedans as well. There is indeed a market for sport-sedans, especially with BMW and a few other luxury/upmarket makes, but it pales in comparison to that for quiet, comfy-riders. The problem is that many of the (formerly) quiet, comfy-riders are turning into sport-sedans. And, of course, the SUV craze is stealing a lot of sales from both traditional comfort-oriented and sport sedans.

All4Lexus

Toyota/Lexus has come around with the NX series, 3 row RX, the new UX, and now the ES'19 update. They took care of the SUV needs first before sedans, and also revamped the line up on their truck platform. The past 3-4 years was a boring phase of the 7 year product cycle. It wasnt until 2016 that things started getting an uptick with final refinements + safety updates before the next generation is released.

The one failure of Lexus has been their internal dashboard and reluctance to change it until a new generation/redesign comes around. To be more specific - the ball was dropped on Apple Carplay and AndroidPlay. I point to Subaru's recent quick adoption within 1-2 years of a model re-design/update for their Outback and Forester.... eg Forester redesign came out in 2017, and in 2018 they add the Carplay capable display. If this was Lexus, this internal dash change would not occur for another 4-5 more years. One look at this list speaks volumes whether you are relevant to the next generation of car buyers or not ( https://www.apple.com/ios/carplay/available-models/ ) Lexus is missing a real opportunity here. Audi and BMW already has it on most cars they sell since 2017, and Mercedes since 2016. Either lead, follow or get out of business. '19 ES350 + '19 UX are finally following some current trends to be relevant to the largest market of car buyers today (smartphone owners). It won't be long before it reaches the rest of the product line up. The Subaru guys figured out what it meant to their bottom line and sales growth by having it versus a year without it. These small things do add up to be relevant.

jgscott

iTrader: (1)

I have a few friends that work at High Volume Lexus Dealerships. I think there is a incorrect assumption here that Lexus/Toyota is so far out of touch or does not understand what Lexus/Toyota Customers want, by using CL desires and wishes as the guide. I think this is very incorrect. CL is likely such a small part of the desires based on what the Average Mass Customer wants and is Satisfied with who today buy's a L/T Product.

Just image if all their Models Sold like the 4GS? A Lexus is a Lexus, not a German BMW, Audi or MB, in spite of what some here might want it to be. Any one of the Models they sell is a pretty good Automobile for the money, in its class of being a Japanese Automobile. It will never be custom Perfect to satisfy every Single Driver. Seems every time Lexus/Toyota improves something in a New Model, CL shifts to dig up another problem and another problem.

The ES may Not be your cup of Tea, but most that Buy it like it, and that cannot be denied. Obvious from some post here, some cant be Satisfied, and even have some hate for Lexus/Toyota products. Stating the Camry is not up to par goes against all those Camry sales in a very, very Competitive class. You may hate the Camry, but........................ Lots Love the Camry just as it is, and appreciate the improvements in newer models, in spite of it Not being Stanced drive off the lots Track ready cars. LOL!