Merged premium fuel threads - is higher than 87 Octane needed or useful?
02-24-24, 07:07 AM
#121
This whole thread has a lot of the no difference, narrative. There lots of misunderstanding of the effects of higher Octane 93 fuels and the effects on Lexus ECU mapping, that controls your Lexus fuel/air, Timing, and other, based on the readings the ECU is seeing from many engine sensors including in the combustion chamber and engine temps to name a few.
93 Shell will have you engine perform different than cheap 87 fuel. You may not be able to feel it, but it does. To cost justify the cost difference is one thing, or feeling if it is worth or or not. Some fuels will also affect the long term condition performance of the internals of the engine also, like excess deposits, and carbon build up. There is actual test data that shows all this to be true. Until you monitor live engine data or do other testing, one would certainly not know any difference. The Toy/Lex 2GR-FKS is not just used in the 19+ ES350 only. It's used in many other Toy/Lex Models for a while.
93 Shell will have you engine perform different than cheap 87 fuel. You may not be able to feel it, but it does. To cost justify the cost difference is one thing, or feeling if it is worth or or not. Some fuels will also affect the long term condition performance of the internals of the engine also, like excess deposits, and carbon build up. There is actual test data that shows all this to be true. Until you monitor live engine data or do other testing, one would certainly not know any difference. The Toy/Lex 2GR-FKS is not just used in the 19+ ES350 only. It's used in many other Toy/Lex Models for a while.
As has been explained above better than I can, 87 vs. 91 or 93 octane is a measurement of the explosiveness or flammability of the gas. (I'm not going to get out beyond my competence level here.) Cheap supermarket gas vs. Top Tier gas differs mostly in how much detergent additive it has to prevent gumming and fouling. When you say Top Tier premium is better for your ES engine than cheap supermarket regular, you're right — but mostly because of the detergents and quality, not the premium octane.
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jgscott (02-24-24)
02-24-24, 10:04 AM
#122
Intermediate
It is also prudent to periodically check the Top Tier Gas website for CURRENT Top Tier gasoline brands.
For example, here in the midwest, Kwik Trip has been a Top Tier supplier, but no longer.
https://www.toptiergas.com/gasoline-brands/
For example, here in the midwest, Kwik Trip has been a Top Tier supplier, but no longer.
https://www.toptiergas.com/gasoline-brands/
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FastDawg (02-24-24),
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02-24-24, 12:24 PM
#123
There's a lot of commingling in this thread of the regular/premium difference versus the cheapo/Top Tier difference. They are not the same thing.
As has been explained above better than I can, 87 vs. 91 or 93 octane is a measurement of the explosiveness or flammability of the gas. (I'm not going to get out beyond my competence level here.) Cheap supermarket gas vs. Top Tier gas differs mostly in how much detergent additive it has to prevent gumming and fouling. When you say Top Tier premium is better for your ES engine than cheap supermarket regular, you're right — but mostly because of the detergents and quality, not the premium octane.
As has been explained above better than I can, 87 vs. 91 or 93 octane is a measurement of the explosiveness or flammability of the gas. (I'm not going to get out beyond my competence level here.) Cheap supermarket gas vs. Top Tier gas differs mostly in how much detergent additive it has to prevent gumming and fouling. When you say Top Tier premium is better for your ES engine than cheap supermarket regular, you're right — but mostly because of the detergents and quality, not the premium octane.
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FastDawg (02-24-24)
02-24-24, 01:15 PM
#124
Sunoco 93 octane does wonderfully in my car. Better for it than non-Ethanol Shell? Both available to me conveniently.
02-24-24, 01:18 PM
#125
Lexus Champion
It is also prudent to periodically check the Top Tier Gas website for CURRENT Top Tier gasoline brands.
For example, here in the midwest, Kwik Trip has been a Top Tier supplier, but no longer.
https://www.toptiergas.com/gasoline-brands/
For example, here in the midwest, Kwik Trip has been a Top Tier supplier, but no longer.
https://www.toptiergas.com/gasoline-brands/
02-24-24, 06:51 PM
#126
Pole Position
High octane burns slower than low octane, so, what you are claiming doesn't ring true. High octane simply allows the manufacturer to raise the compression ratio while having an adequate amount ignition timing advancement for maximum HP, without resulting in knocking. So, high octane protects the engine and allows for more aggressive tuning, without the engine self-destructing.
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FastDawg (02-25-24)
02-25-24, 01:37 AM
#127
High octane burns slower than low octane, so, what you are claiming doesn't ring true. High octane simply allows the manufacturer to raise the compression ratio while having an adequate amount ignition timing advancement for maximum HP, without resulting in knocking. So, high octane protects the engine and allows for more aggressive tuning, without the engine self-destructing.
0.000000001% of people know this.
The others think that higher octane means more powerful fuel.
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FastDawg (02-25-24)
02-25-24, 12:03 PM
#128
High octane burns slower than low octane, so, what you are claiming doesn't ring true. High octane simply allows the manufacturer to raise the compression ratio while having an adequate amount ignition timing advancement for maximum HP, without resulting in knocking. So, high octane protects the engine and allows for more aggressive tuning, without the engine self-destructing.
The whole idea is to get the most complete burn of the fuel across the Piston in the combustion chamber. The ECU determines timing advance and other as I stated before, based on knock and the advance it's allowing and/or retarding values.I have no idea about you last sentence, if you are stating this, or questioning this or what??? It makes No sense to me. The best I can guess is that you lack the real study and test that show some fuels clean and prevent much better than others? Would you have some real data studied that back up internal engine cleaning is better with any cheap 87 Non Top Tier fuel? If you have some data please share? Thanks. If you are good with just using reg 87 fuel then just say that. I have no problems with it being it's your ES350.
Last edited by jgscott; 02-25-24 at 12:55 PM. Reason: typo
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jgscott (02-25-24)
02-25-24, 02:36 PM
#133
Instructor
ESh is correct in his remark as the mindset of majority of people out in the world do think higher octane means more power. Higher and costs more it must be more powerful right? That is what most think. It although may not have been posted here.
02-25-24, 03:59 PM
#134
Pole Position
Can you point out where I said you said higher burns faster? When you said high octane has a more "complete burn," my thinking was it would have to burn faster as the combustion cycle is a finite period of time. If it burned slower, wouldn't it have less time to burn completely? I simply said your statement didn't ring true to me.
Your "The whole idea" statement is not completely wrong, but it is misleading. The purpose of high octane is to ensure the burn is controlled by the ignition spark, rather than pre-igniting (prior to spark). The lower the octane, the higher the chance of the air/fuel mixture pre-igniting. When knocking or pinging happens, the burn starts prior to spark, and then collides with the second burn set off by the spark plug. The collision of the two creates the "knock" which is bad for multiple reasons, but the worst is engine damage.
I agree a pre-ignited burn is a less complete burn, but it's not "the whole idea." The whole idea of high octane is to avoid pre-ignition.
In my last sentence, I wrote: "...high octane protects the engine and allows for more aggressive tuning, without the engine self-destructing." High octane prevents pre-ignition (knocking) which will ruin the engine over time, or even immediately if racing it. Running too high of a compression ratio, running too hot, too hot of a spark plug, or too much boost can all cause pre-ignition and the result can be disastrous. In other words, one can push aggressive tuning further without resulting in damaging pre-ignition by running high octane.
The studies and tests that prove what I'm saying about octane have been going on since the 1930's. At this point, they're common knowledge.
I did not touch on the "top-tier fuel" debate. If I did, I would have said top-tier, high octane doesn't burn cleaner (or faster/slower, or more/less complete) than top-tier regular in a car that's specified to run regular. The grade (octane) can't be conflated with the tier (amount of detergent).
If you're looking for data, Google: "does high octane burn cleaner than regular."
I run regular in my cars which are designated for it per the manufacturer, and I run high octane in my vehicle that requires it per the manufacturer.
Many factors influence the point at which an engine begins to pre-ignite: octane rating of the fuel, ignition and valve timing, temperature, air/fuel mixture, compression ratio, load, and carbon build-up (did I get them all?). All of these factors are considered and addressed by the engine designer (engineer). In the end, the engineer makes the call on the specified octane rating of the recommended fuel.
Changing topics: I mostly use Costco gas which is designated as top-tier, as I'm a big believer in keeping the valves and combustion chamber as clean as possible.
I agree a pre-ignited burn is a less complete burn, but it's not "the whole idea." The whole idea of high octane is to avoid pre-ignition.
If you're looking for data, Google: "does high octane burn cleaner than regular."
Many factors influence the point at which an engine begins to pre-ignite: octane rating of the fuel, ignition and valve timing, temperature, air/fuel mixture, compression ratio, load, and carbon build-up (did I get them all?). All of these factors are considered and addressed by the engine designer (engineer). In the end, the engineer makes the call on the specified octane rating of the recommended fuel.
Changing topics: I mostly use Costco gas which is designated as top-tier, as I'm a big believer in keeping the valves and combustion chamber as clean as possible.
Last edited by Wilson2000; 02-25-24 at 04:03 PM. Reason: typo
02-25-24, 06:56 PM
#135
Can you point out where I said you said higher burns faster? When you said high octane has a more "complete burn," my thinking was it would have to burn faster as the combustion cycle is a finite period of time. If it burned slower, wouldn't it have less time to burn completely? I simply said your statement didn't ring true to me.
Your "The whole idea" statement is not completely wrong, but it is misleading. The purpose of high octane is to ensure the burn is controlled by the ignition spark, rather than pre-igniting (prior to spark). The lower the octane, the higher the chance of the air/fuel mixture pre-igniting. When knocking or pinging happens, the burn starts prior to spark, and then collides with the second burn set off by the spark plug. The collision of the two creates the "knock" which is bad for multiple reasons, but the worst is engine damage.
I agree a pre-ignited burn is a less complete burn, but it's not "the whole idea." The whole idea of high octane is to avoid pre-ignition.
In my last sentence, I wrote: "...high octane protects the engine and allows for more aggressive tuning, without the engine self-destructing." High octane prevents pre-ignition (knocking) which will ruin the engine over time, or even immediately if racing it. Running too high of a compression ratio, running too hot, too hot of a spark plug, or too much boost can all cause pre-ignition and the result can be disastrous. In other words, one can push aggressive tuning further without resulting in damaging pre-ignition by running high octane.
The studies and tests that prove what I'm saying about octane have been going on since the 1930's. At this point, they're common knowledge.
I did not touch on the "top-tier fuel" debate. If I did, I would have said top-tier, high octane doesn't burn cleaner (or faster/slower, or more/less complete) than top-tier regular in a car that's specified to run regular. The grade (octane) can't be conflated with the tier (amount of detergent).
If you're looking for data, Google: "does high octane burn cleaner than regular."
I run regular in my cars which are designated for it per the manufacturer, and I run high octane in my vehicle that requires it per the manufacturer.
Many factors influence the point at which an engine begins to pre-ignite: octane rating of the fuel, ignition and valve timing, temperature, air/fuel mixture, compression ratio, load, and carbon build-up (did I get them all?). All of these factors are considered and addressed by the engine designer (engineer). In the end, the engineer makes the call on the specified octane rating of the recommended fuel.
Changing topics: I mostly use Costco gas which is designated as top-tier, as I'm a big believer in keeping the valves and combustion chamber as clean as possible.
Your "The whole idea" statement is not completely wrong, but it is misleading. The purpose of high octane is to ensure the burn is controlled by the ignition spark, rather than pre-igniting (prior to spark). The lower the octane, the higher the chance of the air/fuel mixture pre-igniting. When knocking or pinging happens, the burn starts prior to spark, and then collides with the second burn set off by the spark plug. The collision of the two creates the "knock" which is bad for multiple reasons, but the worst is engine damage.
I agree a pre-ignited burn is a less complete burn, but it's not "the whole idea." The whole idea of high octane is to avoid pre-ignition.
In my last sentence, I wrote: "...high octane protects the engine and allows for more aggressive tuning, without the engine self-destructing." High octane prevents pre-ignition (knocking) which will ruin the engine over time, or even immediately if racing it. Running too high of a compression ratio, running too hot, too hot of a spark plug, or too much boost can all cause pre-ignition and the result can be disastrous. In other words, one can push aggressive tuning further without resulting in damaging pre-ignition by running high octane.
The studies and tests that prove what I'm saying about octane have been going on since the 1930's. At this point, they're common knowledge.
I did not touch on the "top-tier fuel" debate. If I did, I would have said top-tier, high octane doesn't burn cleaner (or faster/slower, or more/less complete) than top-tier regular in a car that's specified to run regular. The grade (octane) can't be conflated with the tier (amount of detergent).
If you're looking for data, Google: "does high octane burn cleaner than regular."
I run regular in my cars which are designated for it per the manufacturer, and I run high octane in my vehicle that requires it per the manufacturer.
Many factors influence the point at which an engine begins to pre-ignite: octane rating of the fuel, ignition and valve timing, temperature, air/fuel mixture, compression ratio, load, and carbon build-up (did I get them all?). All of these factors are considered and addressed by the engine designer (engineer). In the end, the engineer makes the call on the specified octane rating of the recommended fuel.
Changing topics: I mostly use Costco gas which is designated as top-tier, as I'm a big believer in keeping the valves and combustion chamber as clean as possible.
Here let's give you the info so this can stop and, will enlighten you on what I am...saying. Top Tier, and Shell in particular cleans well. Has Zero to do with what you keep trying to leap and stretch too about burn.
Its about the Additive to clean. This is has been loooooong known.
Why Shell Nitro 93 is so good.
In regards to the performance in the combustion chamber and engine performance. The Lexus KCLV will get into a higher Value with 93 than 87. Thus it will perform better. Period. Don't tell me a KCLV of 18 reading on a car is going to out perform one of 26, 27, 28 on the same car. If it can advance timing more as the ECU is mapped to do, instead of Retarding downward. Also don't tell me that Knock is never detected either. But the less knock detected, with 93 octane helping to reduce, the better it will perform. If there is anything, that most don't understand about how a fuel octane can effect, it's this. Lexus engine KCLV. This is why I say these 93 is No difference claims are just a Narrative. If you research anything about how much KCLV affects performance and you will understand quite a bit more.
Adding to it is that Yes carbon build and internal deposits up can also effect performance knock, and KCLV. It would be most disingenuous to claim different or try to try to confuse, engine internal cleaning and KCLV effects on the engine performance differences of cheap Non Top Tier 87 vs a good quality 93 octane fuel. Now again I did not say you can't use 87. I have no problems with what anyone uses. 87 works perfectly fine, but..., it just is what it is.
BTW my Lexus KCLV is 26. I check it. Do you know exactly what your KCLV is at currently?
Last edited by jgscott; 02-25-24 at 07:05 PM. Reason: typo