2013 to a 2020
08-12-20, 10:38 AM
#16
Lexus Test Driver
This is a bit over the top with regard to noise measurement but whatever. The darn audio system is on all the time so does it really matter which frequencies entering the cabin are 1dB lower or higher.
08-12-20, 10:57 AM
#17
Driver
Thread Starter
I measured it as an experiment... take it or leave it... I could care less what you do with the information or whether it benefits you or not, especially if it is of no interest to you. Some people may appreciate it... some will be sarcastic and have nothing but negative to offer. Not that it matters to some folk (obviously), but I would not have known what was creating the differences and understood what I do now had I not tested it. It's something I enjoy doing, and yes it can matter. The dB level is not the important part, but when I know the frequencies creating the most noise, it also gives me a better idea of what I may can do to help eliminate some of the noise, if anything. I've been able to further quieten several vehicles over the years knowing what to address.
08-12-20, 03:04 PM
#18
I agree, 1 dB may be a relatively small difference, but every bit helps.
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Sonnie (08-12-20)
08-12-20, 03:43 PM
#19
Driver
Thread Starter
Keep in mind, it's only 1dB on the SPL meter... at certain frequencies it could be 4-5dB difference, and that might be where the problem exist. The meter only reads the highest level of noise in the car, so you may have 72dB at 80Hz on one car, 71dB at 80Hz on another at the loudest reading, which is what the meter reads. However at 40Hz the 71dB car is at 68dB and at the same 40Hz the 72dB car is at 63dB, (5dB lower)... so the 72dB car will actually sound quieter if it is able absorb the noise as equally as the 71dB car, because 40Hz will sound louder than 80Hz even at a lower volume level and/or if the car cannot absorb the resonance noise it creates. These are not actual numbers I have measured, just an example of how it can be deceiving to simply measure with an SPL meter and think that just because it measures lower, it will be quieter... and why you can't say it's only 1dB difference. Sure the maximum SPL difference may only be 1dB difference, but there is other factors to consider, which can only be determined with an RTA, and/or what type of insulation the vehicle has as well as how it performs in the car. This is also another reason why we are seeing soundproof glass in more vehicles... more dampening material on the exterior door skins, thicker insulation, etc etc. More people want to hear their music... and if you listen to music like I do, there are quiet passages and I don't like to hear noise. I also listen to talk radio during football season (may not be this year), but I don't want to be hearing road noises from a noisy car. I am very very picky about vehicle quietness, as you can likely presume.
08-12-20, 05:22 PM
#20
Lead Lap
Thanks for all the info guys... we are going to a dealership this weekend and at least try it out. The dealer that is 50 miles from us now has the Atomic and Silver Lining ... and one has the ML system. Maybe our patience will pay off, unless they sell one or both by the weekend... lol.
The video review was very interesting... and will make test driving the care more interesting to see if what he suggest translates the same to us. I can assure you, the 2013 350 we have is fifty-eleven years from any Oldsmobile sled type vehicle... and is much closer to the Olds Achieva.
I don't know that the ML system will be that big of a deal after some thought. She has a very nice aftermarket system in her 2013 that she will probably want to take out and use most of it in the new one if she ends up getting it... so the ML might be a waste of money in that case. i was trying to prevent have to do the work, but she probably won't be happy unless it's upgraded to the aftermarket system like she is use to listening to... JL amps and sub, Morel speakers, and a computer programmed DSP for tuning. She is officially spoiled... and even at 57 she still likes it loud.
As for measuring quietness in a car... the decibel reading really does not tell the whole story. I measured the difference between our 2013 350, 2012 BMW 528i and 2010 Ford F150 Platinum many years ago with a calibrated microphone and REW (Room EQ Wizard). The BMW won the decibel rating only by a dB, but the truck was clearly the quietest, although the BMW was still quiet, but not as quiet on gravel roads... and the 350 was the loudest. It's all about how well the interior can absorb that initial sound, and at what frequency is the sound entering the vehicle. I was able to record the frequency with the RTA in REW, which we use in home audio, and found out why some vehicles may have lower dB levels, but sound louder, because of the certain frequencies entering the vehicle, as well as the vehicle can't absorb the sound as well, so it resonates in the vehicle and makes it seem louder. Some frequencies entering the vehicle were louder than others, even though the dB level was a few dB lower. For example, listen to a 30Hz sinewave, an 80Hz sinewave and a 150Hz sinewave all at the same volume setting... yet you will notice how much louder one is over the other, so depending on the frequency of the noise entering the vehicle, even though it measures the same decibel level, it can sound louder or quieter... hence the use of ANC in so many of the newer vehicles these days.
The video review was very interesting... and will make test driving the care more interesting to see if what he suggest translates the same to us. I can assure you, the 2013 350 we have is fifty-eleven years from any Oldsmobile sled type vehicle... and is much closer to the Olds Achieva.
I don't know that the ML system will be that big of a deal after some thought. She has a very nice aftermarket system in her 2013 that she will probably want to take out and use most of it in the new one if she ends up getting it... so the ML might be a waste of money in that case. i was trying to prevent have to do the work, but she probably won't be happy unless it's upgraded to the aftermarket system like she is use to listening to... JL amps and sub, Morel speakers, and a computer programmed DSP for tuning. She is officially spoiled... and even at 57 she still likes it loud.
As for measuring quietness in a car... the decibel reading really does not tell the whole story. I measured the difference between our 2013 350, 2012 BMW 528i and 2010 Ford F150 Platinum many years ago with a calibrated microphone and REW (Room EQ Wizard). The BMW won the decibel rating only by a dB, but the truck was clearly the quietest, although the BMW was still quiet, but not as quiet on gravel roads... and the 350 was the loudest. It's all about how well the interior can absorb that initial sound, and at what frequency is the sound entering the vehicle. I was able to record the frequency with the RTA in REW, which we use in home audio, and found out why some vehicles may have lower dB levels, but sound louder, because of the certain frequencies entering the vehicle, as well as the vehicle can't absorb the sound as well, so it resonates in the vehicle and makes it seem louder. Some frequencies entering the vehicle were louder than others, even though the dB level was a few dB lower. For example, listen to a 30Hz sinewave, an 80Hz sinewave and a 150Hz sinewave all at the same volume setting... yet you will notice how much louder one is over the other, so depending on the frequency of the noise entering the vehicle, even though it measures the same decibel level, it can sound louder or quieter... hence the use of ANC in so many of the newer vehicles these days.
08-12-20, 08:06 PM
#21
Driver
Thread Starter
I could not find the measurements for the above, but here is another measurement I did on my other BMW, an Optima and a SportTrac. Note that the Optima would appear to be the quietest, but in this case it was the loudest because the SportTrac and the BMW absorbed the noise very quickly, so it did not seem as bad. The Optima noise just kept resonating and would drive me crazy. I hated it because of this. One thing I noticed between those two was engine growl. The BMW had 1 inch thick insulation on the hood and firewall, whereas the Optima had maybe 1/4" insulation, so we could hear that engine growl on smooth roads, but could not hear it on a gravel road because the gravel road noise covered it up.
I am looking forward to test driving the 2020 ES350 after watching the video in an earlier post. I drove my wife's 2013 today for the first time in a while, and it seemed to be quieter than I remember, although I can feel even the slightest bumps, and I'd think it was going to fall apart going over a railroad track.
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kalel2127 (08-13-20)
08-13-20, 02:45 PM
#22
Thanks for all the great info and reminding me that I need to buy miniDSP UMIK-1 in order to run REW in my home theater. 
08-13-20, 05:46 PM
#23
Driver
Thread Starter
It doesn't get any better than REW.
08-14-20, 06:03 AM
#24
I've been using the DDRC-88BM from MiniDSP at home for 3 years now with Dirac Live.
08-14-20, 08:28 AM
#25
Driver
Thread Starter
Check us out over at AV NIRVANA sometime... we keep the latest beta of REW for download there, and John is great about keeping it updated.
08-14-20, 09:15 AM
#26
The human ear has varying sensitivity to frequency. It peaks above a few thousand Hz. Noise inside the car can be very subjective like rattles and whistling sounds can be quite annoying.
08-14-20, 11:03 AM
#27
Driver
Thread Starter
Yep... which is why I always ask my wife if she can hear anything. She heard engine noise once coming thru one of my speakers... I couldn't hear it for nothing, no matter where my ear was or how I listened. Turns out it was a loose RCA cable that was not getting a good ground. Tightened it up and she said, "it's gone!". She has cat ears. She can hear road noise I can't hear, and excellent for finding anything rattling in a car or truck... lol.
08-15-20, 03:44 AM
#28
Woodrow, Excellent points on perception. I use Eco mode and I also turn off traction control and drive it full time in S7 or S8. Drives like a dream and a much better car than my 2010 ES 350. Would love to see the ES with an electric motor add on like the RX450H with 4 wheel drive.
Last edited by CJS57; 08-16-20 at 03:44 AM.
08-15-20, 05:38 PM
#29
Driver
Thread Starter
We went ... we looked... we drove. Definitely a different ride... not sure about being much quieter, but some. I think it's smoother and floats a little more, absorbs bumps better, but that may be due to 102,000 mile struts on her 2013. We looked at the Silver Lining Luxury with the ML system and she liked it okay, then saw the Atomic Silver in Premium and liked the color better, but it had orangish looking seats and she couldn't handle it ... turned her nose up. I have to admit... the color did not look right with the Atomic Silver... not even sure it would look right on any color, but I suppose that's why everyone has an opinion. We decided to see what they could do on the Silver Lining, although we really did not want to waste the money on the ML system, so we were thinking we'd see what they will do and then we'll see about finding the Atomic with a different interior and less the ML system. Neither of those had the panoramic roof like she has not and wanted again for some reason. We walked on inside (had not been inside yet) and there was a Moonbeam Beige in Premium sitting on the far side of the showroom floor with the panoramic roof and heads-up display, 12.3" display and no ML system, and she absolutely fell in love with it. She walked around it... "I want this car... this is the one I want... LOVE it!" The right interior and the right options... $3500 rebate, $750 cash back, respectable discount, 1.99% financing... we drove it home. Now we have a pair of ES350's. She said when we left the house this morning... "We are just going to look, we are NOT bringing a car home today." I reminded her of that 3 or 4 times before she signed the paperwork. She couldn't stand it.
Now the fun starts for me... figuring out how to tear this car apart, removing a good bit of the system from her 2013, and getting her audio system in the 2020 like she wants it. It's gonna be fun!
Now the fun starts for me... figuring out how to tear this car apart, removing a good bit of the system from her 2013, and getting her audio system in the 2020 like she wants it. It's gonna be fun!
08-16-20, 12:07 PM
#30
Pole Position
Congrats! I’m sure you will enjoy the new car. Keep us updated on your audio mods.