UltraLux22

For all of the positives I could mention about the Crown: ride height, SUV-like seating position, --minus the pano roof gives more headroom -- HP, and distinctive styling; there are too many missing features to justify that price point. No HUD, manual steering adjustments vs. power, no thigh extender, limited seat settings, missing lumbar for passenger, only two-way lumbar for the driver, and so on...

ionian

Is your ES really far superior in every way? Does it have 340HP with 400LB-FT of torque with standard AWD? Can your ES do 0-60MPH in 5.5seconds?

ionian

Another review on the Crown:


Alex goes into more details than most of the other channels.

LexFinally

I started this thread and named it. Except when I named it, what I meant was that the low-slung Crown sedan being sold abroad -- the Mirai sibling originally meant to be the next GS -- was a superior sports luxury sedan to our ES.

What's emerging as likely now is that the next ES will be just an optioned-up, marked-up reskin of this white-elephant "Crown" monstrosity destined for colossal failure in the States. That will kill the ES as a sales proposition, and make it dead to me.

glamglam

Yup! I agree! The new ES will be a failure if it resembles the Crown. Lexus needs to build an ES that’s a real head turner. Not a fat hunchback low slung suv style Crown. Shame on Lexus if they do that.

peteharvey

But aren't sedan sales on the nose, while hi riding SUV sales are booming?

ionian

sedan is a dying breed. One study cited by Scotty Kilmer said 90+% of new sales within next few years are SUV varieties.

LexFinally

Except the Crown isn't an SUV. It's a sedan with all the dynamic and fuel-economy disadvantages of one, but not the offsetting advantages of butch truck styling or versatility for people and cargo. Honda tried this with the Crosstour and failed. So did BMW and Mercedes with their "Grand Touring" humpback models.

Beyond that, and speaking only for myself, I don't want such a vehicle. If this is the future of the ES, I will never buy or recommend an ES again.

ionian

Crown is Toyota's modern interpretation of a sedan. It is part sedan and part SUV. Only time will tell but I applaud Toyota for trying something new.

UltraLux22

IMO I believe that's why Toyota and any manufacturer trying to boost falling sedan sales would do: attempt to appeal to the masses. More specifically the ever-growing trend of SUV sales. I'm not saying it's a winning formula but I can see the direction considering sedan sales are suffering. Instead of going SUV only, they are altering the sedan design to try and pull in some SUV customers. When looking at the Camry and Avalon iterations of old, they transitioned into more sleek designs to appear sportier. The latest Camry models have been sportier looking for sure. I see the ES as being very sleek, which is one of the appealing attributes for me. I'm certainly no visionary but I'm having a really hard time seeing an ES version of the Crown that would be elegant and sleek. I don't want to count out Lexus yet before seeing what direction the 8ES takes.

LexFinally

As I pointed out above, it isn't new. At least 3 other makers have tried the same thing and failed.

I applaud Toyota for the sleek, desirable Crown sedan they're selling abroad as I type this. It looks great, it quite probably has more interior room front and back than the "Crown" humpback they're offering here, it has a lower center of gravity for better handling, it has the AWD we miss in the current ES without the ridiculous packaging and style compromises. It was meant to be the new GS, and it's so droolworthy that I'd have had to seriously consider trading in my ES to get it. That will never, ever happen now.

ionian

yeah, that makes sense. Toyota has 20% of sedan sales in the U.S. While it doesn't sound like much but it is market segment leader. They are trying to hold onto this position.

JamesAZ

I bought an ES, not an IS, GS, RC, or LC, so horsepower and torque aren't a factor for me when buying a vehicle. 302hp at 267lb-ft is more than plenty for me. I live in Phoenix, so again, AWD isn't a factor for me. And my car does 0-60 in 6.1 seconds, I can't imagine that extra 0.6s really makes a big deal.

But when it comes to features, styling, comfort, ride quality, and my overall impressions of the car, yes, my fully loaded Ultra Luxury ES is 100% better than it. Not saying it's a bad car at all, again, it's a perfect Avalon replacement which has always been the middle ground between the Camry and ES, it's just not better than the ES except for power and AWD, which will obviously be solved in the 8th gen ES since they share the same platform.

E46CT

Our cars and yours by extension ride on essentially Camry (Avalon) chassis and suspension. The Crown uses a revised and strengthened TNGA chassis. So by definition, it should be a better base than our ES especially since the Crown replaces the Avalon--why would Toyota go backwards? if you strip back the L emblem and all the exterior stuff, we all drive essentially Camrys when it comes to the bones of the car. Not a bad thing, but it is what it is.

You might have a point on subjective things like styling, etc. But at its core, by definition, the Crown is the latest and greatest from Toyota in this size/segment.

JamesAZ

I'm fully aware it's a Camry/Avalon. It's also a Highlander, RAV4, Sienna, NX, RX, and Venza. It's one of the biggest reasons why I bought it. Not sure what your point is though as both my ES and the Crown are both on the TNGA-K platform, just the new Crown just has a newer powertrain.