ES to lose its 6-cylinder engine in 2024?
10-15-22, 03:32 PM
#61
Lexus Champion
My wife has IS200t, so I'm familiar with low rpm drone or brrrrrrr around town, as well as a lack of bottom end torque.
The German 4 cylinder turbos much smoother and more powerful too.
Savagegeese says new 2.4T rough.
Generally speaking, the bigger the capacity, the coarser.
To make things worse, the 2.4T is thirstier than old 3.5 V6 too.
The Germans achieve refinement and economy by using small 2.0 capacities.
However, the 2.4T Hybrid ES500h with the assistance of electric motors should be all three faster, smoother and more economical.
Though Savagegeese says that only 10% will buy this flagship model.
The German 4 cylinder turbos much smoother and more powerful too.
Savagegeese says new 2.4T rough.
Generally speaking, the bigger the capacity, the coarser.
To make things worse, the 2.4T is thirstier than old 3.5 V6 too.
The Germans achieve refinement and economy by using small 2.0 capacities.
However, the 2.4T Hybrid ES500h with the assistance of electric motors should be all three faster, smoother and more economical.
Though Savagegeese says that only 10% will buy this flagship model.
10-15-22, 04:10 PM
#62
A few years ago Car and Driver had an article explaining how 2.0t engines hit the sweet spot for smoothness and power in small, boosted engines. BMW, MB and Audi arguably have the best overall 2.0t engines. They make a lot of them and have been selling and developing them longer than most. As time goes on most manufacturers will improve theirs too.
This increases air flow efficiency, while decreasing piston velocity.
The shorter stroke and 2.0 capacity does limit torque, but the Germans make up by increasing turbo boost.
Toyota 2.0 & 2.4 use long stroke and big capacity for hi torque.
However, the long stroke increases piston velocity for harshness, while the smaller bore limits valve and port cross section for less air flow efficiency.
The F1 1.5 V6 uses very large bores with very short stroke.
The short stroke limits torque, but F1 carbon fibre chassis only weighs 500+ kg, so it doesn’t need much torque unlike a truck.
The short stroke with lower piston velocity also helps to rev to 20,000 rpm for more power.
The huge bore has wider cross sectional area for superior air flow to also help rev to 20,000 rpm for more power.
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dr3wski (10-15-22)
10-15-22, 08:10 PM
#63
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LexFinally (10-18-22)
10-15-22, 08:15 PM
#64
Just never buy an american 2.0T because my ATS...as cheap and remarkable as it was...had oil leaking out of the engine at 33,000 miles and I didn't really beat on that car...I should have inasmuch as it was a lease.
And that highlights the example of one of the points made here:
Germans make way more turboed engines than most others.
And that highlights the example of one of the points made here:
Germans make way more turboed engines than most others.
10-16-22, 09:18 AM
#65
Part of that is because Toyota can't get their hands on the materials to build more batteries. The plug-in hybrids are back-ordered 1-2 years now, and that's not going to get better anytime soon. Of course, the combination of bid-up prices and long waits will hold sales down in the short term.
10-16-22, 10:29 AM
#66
They are the most unrealiable and sound like diesel, especially the VW/Audi 2.0T.
10-16-22, 01:01 PM
#67
The Germans use smaller capacity fours with bigger bores and shorter strokes that compromize torque, but then they compensate by increasing the turbo boost - at a theoretical cost to longevity - though how often do you hear of German 2.0T's requiring major repairs?
Back in 2010, my brother in law did take his brand new Q5 2.0T back for water pump warranty three times, before he traded it in - but that was more than 10 years ago?
Two generations ago, my front door neighbor had a C250 Diesel 2.0T, and it was brand new just out of 3 year warranty, with an oil leak that cost $3k to repair, but that was many years ago too.
Last edited by peteharvey; 10-16-22 at 01:10 PM.
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dr3wski (10-16-22)
10-18-22, 09:32 AM
#68
Lexus Test Driver
10-18-22, 09:54 AM
#69
Lexus Champion
10-18-22, 10:14 AM
#70
I think this is why TMC and uses 2.0 and 2.4 Turbos - larger capacity with longer strokes for more torque - so that lower turbo pressures can be used for longevity; but the throbbing brrrrrrr around town of my wife's IS200t 2.0T is a pain, so I think the 2.4T could be worse like Savagegeese says.
The Germans use smaller capacity fours with bigger bores and shorter strokes that compromize torque, but then they compensate by increasing the turbo boost - at a theoretical cost to longevity - though how often do you hear of German 2.0T's requiring major repairs?
Back in 2010, my brother in law did take his brand new Q5 2.0T back for water pump warranty three times, before he traded it in - but that was more than 10 years ago?
Two generations ago, my front door neighbor had a C250 Diesel 2.0T, and it was brand new just out of 3 year warranty, with an oil leak that cost $3k to repair, but that was many years ago too.
The Germans use smaller capacity fours with bigger bores and shorter strokes that compromize torque, but then they compensate by increasing the turbo boost - at a theoretical cost to longevity - though how often do you hear of German 2.0T's requiring major repairs?
Back in 2010, my brother in law did take his brand new Q5 2.0T back for water pump warranty three times, before he traded it in - but that was more than 10 years ago?
Two generations ago, my front door neighbor had a C250 Diesel 2.0T, and it was brand new just out of 3 year warranty, with an oil leak that cost $3k to repair, but that was many years ago too.
And yes, they still have disposable plastic water pumps with a failure-prone gasket. I investigated this issue as thoroughly as I could before buying my '22 ES V6. I wanted to be able to justify an Audi, but this issue was the #1 reason I just couldn't. Lease German, but buy Japanese.
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dr3wski (10-18-22)
10-26-22, 06:17 PM
#72
I did not mind it in my 2018 ATS 2.0T RWD Sedan.
That vehicle actually idled considerably quieter than my new ES350 and I liked the sound of it spooling up...very quiet...the Cadillac also had oil seeping from the block at 30,000mi, so.....some turbos are bad, yeah, some not so much. Mercedes Benz turbodiesels from the 1980s/90s were designed to reach 500,000 miles...they sounded like a school bus.
That vehicle actually idled considerably quieter than my new ES350 and I liked the sound of it spooling up...very quiet...the Cadillac also had oil seeping from the block at 30,000mi, so.....some turbos are bad, yeah, some not so much. Mercedes Benz turbodiesels from the 1980s/90s were designed to reach 500,000 miles...they sounded like a school bus.
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