Tesla Business and News Thread
10-27-23, 12:05 PM
#676
Lexus Champion
10-28-23, 06:40 AM
#677
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Tesla price cuts seem to have hurt Hertz
Hertz said it would slow down EV adoption while it learns to manage costs, CEO Stephen Scherr said on Thursday, according to Bloomberg.
Tesla and Hertz signed a massive deal for 100,000 vehicles in 2021, marking the start of a major partnership and an overall shift in the landscape of the rental sector in the U.S.
Hertz has roughly 35,000 Teslas in its EVs, which has climbed to 50,000 total vehicles, or 11 percent of its total fleet.
Tesla, on the other hand, has been cutting prices to enable more affordability for buyers, attempting to get some vehicles as close to or even below the $30,000 price point after government and state incentives.
While car buyers are loving the discounts, investors in the company’s stock, and companies like Hertz that are dependent on maintaining healthy margins and profitability are not. The resale value of their Tesla fleet has decreased by about 30 percent, and EV maintenance costs have been higher than Hertz initially expected.
Hertz will still buy 100,000 Teslas and 175,000 GM EVs, but it will not meet the goal to have one-quarter of its rental fleet be EVs by the end of next year. It needs to lower repair costs by working with suppliers and wait for costs to settle to lower its purchase costs.
“We have an opportunity to buy these cars now at roughly a third less than where we bought the initial component of our Teslas. We’re ultimately better buyers on a falling price where the margin composition on those cars will be better,” Scherr said.
Of course, EV price cuts were not the only reason Hertz felt financial pressure during Q3. Used car costs were much higher a year ago and Hertz could sell its vehicles used for more than it would buy them for new.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-pric...nings-results/
Tesla price cuts hinder Hertz earnings as it misses profit estimates
Tesla’s price cuts throughout the third quarter provided challenges for rental company Hertz (NASDAQ: HTZ), who adopted the electric automaker’s vehicles in 2021 for its fleet. The swings in pricing hindered Hertz’s Q3 earnings report, as it missed profit estimates.Hertz said it would slow down EV adoption while it learns to manage costs, CEO Stephen Scherr said on Thursday, according to Bloomberg.
Tesla and Hertz signed a massive deal for 100,000 vehicles in 2021, marking the start of a major partnership and an overall shift in the landscape of the rental sector in the U.S.
Hertz has roughly 35,000 Teslas in its EVs, which has climbed to 50,000 total vehicles, or 11 percent of its total fleet.
Tesla, on the other hand, has been cutting prices to enable more affordability for buyers, attempting to get some vehicles as close to or even below the $30,000 price point after government and state incentives.
While car buyers are loving the discounts, investors in the company’s stock, and companies like Hertz that are dependent on maintaining healthy margins and profitability are not. The resale value of their Tesla fleet has decreased by about 30 percent, and EV maintenance costs have been higher than Hertz initially expected.
Hertz will still buy 100,000 Teslas and 175,000 GM EVs, but it will not meet the goal to have one-quarter of its rental fleet be EVs by the end of next year. It needs to lower repair costs by working with suppliers and wait for costs to settle to lower its purchase costs.
“We have an opportunity to buy these cars now at roughly a third less than where we bought the initial component of our Teslas. We’re ultimately better buyers on a falling price where the margin composition on those cars will be better,” Scherr said.
Of course, EV price cuts were not the only reason Hertz felt financial pressure during Q3. Used car costs were much higher a year ago and Hertz could sell its vehicles used for more than it would buy them for new.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-pric...nings-results/
wonder what they mean in saying repair costs have been higher than they expected.
10-28-23, 07:36 AM
#678
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
model s plaid...
new tires every 5k.
depreciation of 50% in 18 months.
owner not happy.
new tires every 5k.
depreciation of 50% in 18 months.
owner not happy.
10-28-23, 10:57 AM
#679
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
I'm confused about that as well. There are no maintenance costs except cabin filter, tire rotation. My brother in law is at 20k just did his first service, tire rotation and cabin filter
10-28-23, 10:59 AM
#680
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
model s plaid...
new tires every 5k.
depreciation of 50% in 18 months.
owner not happy.
https://youtu.be/3GRt3d7C3I4?si=FZw96-XEri7jaRY6
new tires every 5k.
depreciation of 50% in 18 months.
owner not happy.
https://youtu.be/3GRt3d7C3I4?si=FZw96-XEri7jaRY6
10-28-23, 11:47 AM
#681
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
perhaps you misunderstand... his tires are TOAST after 5k.
hameed sent me this link explaining the problem on model s:
https://www.macsboost.com/2023/02/20...o-much-camber/
hameed sent me this link explaining the problem on model s:
https://www.macsboost.com/2023/02/20...o-much-camber/
10-28-23, 11:48 AM
#682
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
as you may recall, the 3 i rented from hertz had a major defect with the trunk lid lifted up on one side. didn't bother me (i expected it
), but not a great look.
10-28-23, 11:50 AM
#683
Lexus Champion
Elon is a genius. Shouldn’t these vehicles be perfect from the factory?
I actually thought since you now own an EV your EDS would dissipate at least a little bit.
10-28-23, 12:15 PM
#684
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
of course when you cherry pick the first few words. here's more of it.
when people refer to a CEO by their first name, it's obvious who does not have things in perspective (i'm not going to use your term calling me deranged). i'm very happy for that tesla stock has brought you great wealth and you like your model Y. but you seem incapable of rationally processing any criticism of tesla or "elon".
the camber and premature tire wear problem with model s (not just plaid) is widely known apparently.
but i'm wasting time typing here.
Elon is a genius. Shouldn’t these vehicles be perfect from the factory? To answer this you must ask yourself for what situation are they perfect for. Is it everyday driving, or is it for breaking records on high speed tracks?For the curious, the stock suspension of the Tesla S and X (and refresh 2021+) is designed to have 1.5 degrees (rear camber) in mid ride height. This is the typical setting for cars like an M3 Bmw. This sounds reasonable for a high performance vehicle, correct? The gotcha is camber is something that changes with ride height and Tesla S/X have air suspensions that allow many vertical inches of adjustment. There are 5 settings with mid height being logically in the middle. Mid height sounds normal, but it is not. Low is the new normal. On refresh vehicles it won’t even let you drive mid level above 55mph. In low, camber increases to 2+ degrees.
This is quite extraordinary for a “normal” alignment. However if you want to set a record lap time with a bone stock, unmodified vehicle, this is what you do. https://insideevs.com/news/532116/tesla-models-plaid-record-nurburgring/ While an awesome feat, it does not come without major tradeoffs in straight line traction and tire wear.
The problem is 1.5 is itself an aggressive setup but that’s not where the cars normally drive. This means 2+ degrees is really the nominal everyday camber. This is well into a region of diminishing returns and is devastating to tire wear or even tire reliability.
Often when tires fail, drivers are blamed they are not running enough tire pressure. Drivers are encouraged to run higher than spec numbers to compensate. This is at best a band-aid and awful for grip.
With extreme camber, inner side walls are under extreme stress and generate significant heat. The side wall cord often fails and tires are often blamed. Is it really a tire issue? Where did that sidewall heat come from anyway? (it came from your batteries, lol). This setup is far from ideal, and your tires are begging for mercy. It’s time to stop the insanity.
So, what is the tesla “spec” for camber? If you want to call it a spec, it is anything between -0.5 and -2.5 degree at mid height. In that region the alignment machine will give you a green light. That is just like saying there is no spec. Everything from a Dodge caravan to a race setup Corvette should fit within that metric. Good thing for Tesla there is no stock adjustment, so just about any reading is ok. That’s ok, we understand your frustration. MACSBOOST is here to help.
The Hunter Tesla S/X rear alignment Specs Shown. Camber is -.5 to -2.5 degrees! Nearly anything goes for camber. Rear toe of 1/16″ out to 7/16″ total toe in all falls within specification of green. Shown toe is typical of independent suspension rear toe alignments.Car setup is all about tradeoffs. While it would be nice to have one setup to rule them all, a magic best setup for all conditions or every corner does not exist. Every alignment setup is a compromise in some way or another.
There is no one size fits all car setup. It is all about compromise. It is in our opinion (and those of our expert peers, championship autocrossers, racing team engineers and tire experts) that the stock setup is simply overboard when it comes to rear cambers and daily driving. Yes it is better to have high cambers for very high speed road course tracks… And maybe for best numbers through a high speed slalom course but that’s about it. A setup of this kind sacrifices straight line and even moderate turn traction and is quite awful on tires. They are making major sacrifices for this edge use case and are needlessly filling landfills with tires.
But the PLAID is the quickest production car ever? Shouldn’t it have a setup optimized for drag racing? Actually, it doesn’t. It can go faster. The factory rear camber setup is about as far away from a drag racing setup as you could imagine. The contact patch is less than optimal. When you have more horsepower than anyone else Tesla can afford to sacrifice grip to be able to brag about other superlatives. https://greengarageblog.org/14-negat...-pros-and-cons This also means If you add grip, it will go faster!
Don’t know what contact patch is? See what goodyear says: https://www.goodyear.com/en-US/learn...-contact-patch?
Simply put, while best for few laps on a fast twisty race track, stock camber is simply too excessive for anything else.
This is quite extraordinary for a “normal” alignment. However if you want to set a record lap time with a bone stock, unmodified vehicle, this is what you do. https://insideevs.com/news/532116/tesla-models-plaid-record-nurburgring/ While an awesome feat, it does not come without major tradeoffs in straight line traction and tire wear.
The problem is 1.5 is itself an aggressive setup but that’s not where the cars normally drive. This means 2+ degrees is really the nominal everyday camber. This is well into a region of diminishing returns and is devastating to tire wear or even tire reliability.
Often when tires fail, drivers are blamed they are not running enough tire pressure. Drivers are encouraged to run higher than spec numbers to compensate. This is at best a band-aid and awful for grip.
With extreme camber, inner side walls are under extreme stress and generate significant heat. The side wall cord often fails and tires are often blamed. Is it really a tire issue? Where did that sidewall heat come from anyway? (it came from your batteries, lol). This setup is far from ideal, and your tires are begging for mercy. It’s time to stop the insanity.
So, what is the tesla “spec” for camber? If you want to call it a spec, it is anything between -0.5 and -2.5 degree at mid height. In that region the alignment machine will give you a green light. That is just like saying there is no spec. Everything from a Dodge caravan to a race setup Corvette should fit within that metric. Good thing for Tesla there is no stock adjustment, so just about any reading is ok. That’s ok, we understand your frustration. MACSBOOST is here to help.
The Hunter Tesla S/X rear alignment Specs Shown. Camber is -.5 to -2.5 degrees! Nearly anything goes for camber. Rear toe of 1/16″ out to 7/16″ total toe in all falls within specification of green. Shown toe is typical of independent suspension rear toe alignments.Car setup is all about tradeoffs. While it would be nice to have one setup to rule them all, a magic best setup for all conditions or every corner does not exist. Every alignment setup is a compromise in some way or another.
There is no one size fits all car setup. It is all about compromise. It is in our opinion (and those of our expert peers, championship autocrossers, racing team engineers and tire experts) that the stock setup is simply overboard when it comes to rear cambers and daily driving. Yes it is better to have high cambers for very high speed road course tracks… And maybe for best numbers through a high speed slalom course but that’s about it. A setup of this kind sacrifices straight line and even moderate turn traction and is quite awful on tires. They are making major sacrifices for this edge use case and are needlessly filling landfills with tires.
But the PLAID is the quickest production car ever? Shouldn’t it have a setup optimized for drag racing? Actually, it doesn’t. It can go faster. The factory rear camber setup is about as far away from a drag racing setup as you could imagine. The contact patch is less than optimal. When you have more horsepower than anyone else Tesla can afford to sacrifice grip to be able to brag about other superlatives. https://greengarageblog.org/14-negat...-pros-and-cons This also means If you add grip, it will go faster!
Don’t know what contact patch is? See what goodyear says: https://www.goodyear.com/en-US/learn...-contact-patch?
Simply put, while best for few laps on a fast twisty race track, stock camber is simply too excessive for anything else.
the camber and premature tire wear problem with model s (not just plaid) is widely known apparently.
but i'm wasting time typing here.
Last edited by bitkahuna; 10-28-23 at 01:24 PM.
10-28-23, 12:18 PM
#685
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
perhaps you misunderstand... his tires are TOAST after 5k.
hameed sent me this link explaining the problem on model s:
https://www.macsboost.com/2023/02/20...o-much-camber/
hameed sent me this link explaining the problem on model s:
https://www.macsboost.com/2023/02/20...o-much-camber/
10-28-23, 12:24 PM
#686
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Just to add to the above, my brother in law is still on his original tires on his 2020 model S. I do know that Tesla's eat through tires faster than regular cars (it's probably their biggest "maint" expense), but I have to question 5k
Last edited by AMIRZA786; 10-28-23 at 12:39 PM.
10-28-23, 12:43 PM
#687
Lexus Champion
when people refer to a CEO by their first name, it's obviously who does not have things in perspective (i'm not going to use your term calling me deranged). i'm very happy for that tesla stock has brought you great wealth and you like your model Y. but you seem incapable of rationally processing any criticism of tesla or "elon".
https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/st...57361418866883
There are only so many self inflicted wounds a CEO is allowed before it becomes toxic to the entire company. Doesn't matter how technically competent they are you still employ humans, humans buy your cars and humans buy your stock.
There are only so many self inflicted wounds a CEO is allowed before it becomes toxic to the entire company. Doesn't matter how technically competent they are you still employ humans, humans buy your cars and humans buy your stock.
Take the ball and go home.
10-28-23, 01:26 PM
#688
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
well that video was about a plaid which no doubt it driven harder than a regular s and perhaps they keep the suspension in low more often which sounds like is brutal on the inner edge of the rear tires.
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10-28-23, 03:52 PM
#690
i say definitely not the normal though. i agree 15-20k miles is probably close to average.
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AMIRZA786 (10-28-23)