When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I'm not a fan of the new structural battery packs in the new Teslas. It effectively renders them unserviceable should there be a failure in one of the cells. The batteries might last a good while but the best thing from a consumer standpoint would be to have actual serviceable battery packs that can be remanufactured by aftermarket suppliers like they do in Priuses. Hopefully other OEMs don't follow suit with this type of assembly.
I'm not a fan of the new structural battery packs in the new Teslas. It effectively renders them unserviceable should there be a failure in one of the cells. The batteries might last a good while but the best thing from a consumer standpoint would be to have actual serviceable battery packs that can be remanufactured by aftermarket suppliers like they do in Priuses. Hopefully other OEMs don't follow suit with this type of assembly.
I've watched so many of these battery breakdowns, it can be head spinning! The chances of individual cell failures in the 4680 structural pack is probably so remote, and with the 8 year, 120,000 miles, it wouldn't even be a concern to me. The reason why Tesla chose this path is because it's cheaper to manufacture and lowers costs. My Polestar uses pouch modules, and yes, you can swap out bad modules but the battery pack cost to the manufacture (passed down to the consumer) is much higher. In the scenario where modules go bad, it would take Tesla roughly about the same time or less to swap out the whole battery pack as it would for Polestar to change out an individual module. Polestar would first have to pull whole pack, remove all the components, try and figure out which module is bad, replace the bad module, put all the components back on than re-install the battery pack.
I'm not a fan of the new structural battery packs in the new Teslas. It effectively renders them unserviceable should there be a failure in one of the cells. The batteries might last a good while but the best thing from a consumer standpoint would be to have actual serviceable battery packs that can be remanufactured by aftermarket suppliers like they do in Priuses.
Prius battery has 50x less energy capacity than the average BEV not really comparable.
I know from personal experience that swapping in used modules into a Prius pack is a bad idea chance of failure soon after is high. Best is to replace the entire battery.
I've watched so many of these battery breakdowns, it can be head spinning! The chances of individual cell failures in the 4680 structural pack is probably so remote, and with the 8 year, 120,000 miles, it wouldn't even be a concern to me. The reason why Tesla chose this path is because it's cheaper to manufacture and lowers costs. My Polestar uses pouch modules, and yes, you can swap out bad modules but the battery pack cost to the manufacture (passed down to the consumer) is much higher. In the scenario where modules go bad, it would take Tesla roughly about the same time or less to swap out the whole battery pack as it would for Polestar to change out an individual module. Polestar would first have to pull whole pack, remove all the components, try and figure out which module is bad, replace the bad module, put all the components back on than re-install the battery pack.
Anyway, just my 2cents
I want to believe that the high voltage battery failure rate is so low that it's okay to manufacture non-serviceable batteries. However, I'm seeing people having high voltage battery failures in relatively new 3s/Ys the Tesla forums. Luckily, they're still under warranty but imagine 10 years down the road getting hit with a random $13,000 (not sure how much a new battery will cost by then) repair bill. It really casts a lot of doubt on the long term ownership viability of Teslas/EVs in general. One of the perks of ICE ownership is that just about any mechanic can service them. As it stands, I'm perfectly comfortable with owning/buying an out of warranty Lexus but would be very nervous about buying an out of warranty EV.
If EVs are to replace gas powered cars in the future, serviceability is definitely going to be an important thing to consider. I'd hate for everyone to go the route of Apple and make it a nightmare to repair anything outside of the dealership.
Originally Posted by LeX2K
Prius battery has 50x less energy capacity than the average BEV not really comparable.
I know from personal experience that swapping in used modules into a Prius pack is a bad idea chance of failure soon after is high. Best is to replace the entire battery.
There are battery repair shops around the country that will either install used (but voltage balanced) modules into Priuses. These modules are usually pulled from totaled Priuses but are still serviceable. They will also replace all the old modules with brand new ones for a bit more money. The cost of these services are a fraction of what it costs for a new pack at a dealership.
There are battery repair shops around the country that will either install used (but voltage balanced) modules into Priuses. These modules are usually pulled from totaled Priuses but are still serviceable. They will also replace all the old modules with brand new ones for a bit more money. The cost of these services are a fraction of what it costs for a new pack at a dealership.
I've done this myself the pack failed 2 years later. It's not worth the labour time to do it IMO. You're putting used batteries into a used pack there is no way to know how long the repair will hold up.
As for large packs being serviced we'll see over time if this becomes an advantage or not, my prediction is very few in any packs will be repaired.
One of the perks of ICE ownership is that just about any mechanic can service them.
This isn't true at all a modern car requires expensive scan tools, some makes/models require tools specific to that brand.
I've done this myself the pack failed 2 years later. It's not worth the labour time to do it IMO. You're putting used batteries into a used pack there is no way to know how long the repair will hold up.
As for large packs being serviced we'll see over time if this becomes an advantage or not, my prediction is very few in any packs will be repaired.
This isn't true at all a modern car requires expensive scan tools, some makes/models require tools specific to that brand.
Granted I haven't replaced a battery in a hybrid before, I would still like aftermarket options available that can service it. Hopefully the batteries can be manufactured to a point where failure is extremely rare and they have lifespans considerably longer than ICE cars, unfortunately high voltage battery replacements on relatively newer cars a more common sight in the Tesla forums than I'd be comfortable with. What I would really hate to see in the future is EVs being made as throwaway products.
For what it's worth, my independent Japanese shop can do just about any service to my car. The initial investment for the tools themselves may be expensive but the capability is certainly there.
Hopefully the batteries can be manufactured to a point where failure is extremely rare and they have lifespans considerably longer than ICE cars, unfortunately high voltage battery replacements on relatively newer cars a more common sight in the Tesla forums than I'd be comfortable with.
I want to believe that the high voltage battery failure rate is so low that it's okay to manufacture non-serviceable batteries. However, I'm seeing people having high voltage battery failures in relatively new 3s/Ys the Tesla forums. Luckily, they're still under warranty but imagine 10 years down the road getting hit with a random $13,000 (not sure how much a new battery will cost by then) repair bill. It really casts a lot of doubt on the long term ownership viability of Teslas/EVs in general. One of the perks of ICE ownership is that just about any mechanic can service them. As it stands, I'm perfectly comfortable with owning/buying an out of warranty Lexus but would be very nervous about buying an out of warranty EV.
If EVs are to replace gas powered cars in the future, serviceability is definitely going to be an important thing to consider. I'd hate for everyone to go the route of Apple and make it a nightmare to repair anything outside of the dealership.
There are battery repair shops around the country that will either install used (but voltage balanced) modules into Priuses. These modules are usually pulled from totaled Priuses but are still serviceable. They will also replace all the old modules with brand new ones for a bit more money. The cost of these services are a fraction of what it costs for a new pack at a dealership.
I understand your concern, but I wouldn't go by forums, as they mainly represent the enthusiast owners. If you were ever to go on the Polestar forum, either every Polestar is absolute junk or it's the best car in the world.
Monroe and Associates did several videos on the 4680, and they concluded that failure rates would be lower than others battery packs. I'm not saying they will never fail, but only time will tell how durable they are. And in all honesty, I would rather change the whole pack over individual modules in case of pack failure
Ford’s plan to build new, ultra-efficient batteries in the US means EVs will be getting much, much cheaper: ‘This is a big deal’
In February, Ford announced that it will build a factory in Michigan to produce affordable lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries for its electric vehicles, per the MIT Technology Review.
Most lithium batteries use additional metals, like nickel and cobalt, to help them store energy. But most of these metals are rare and expensive. LFP batteries use ordinary iron instead — a much more affordable alternative. According to MIT, batteries of this type are about 20% cheaper on average.
Iron-heavy lithium batteries have been around for a long time, MIT says. But they have been previously overlooked as an option for EVs because batteries made with the metal could not store as much energy as other lithium batteries of the same size. Companies were focused on achieving a greater range for their vehicles, so they favored the smaller, lighter batteries.
However, as demand for EVs increases, the cost and scarcity behind procuring rare metals is becoming a bigger problem. Cobalt is especially problematic because mining it is dangerous, as the New Yorker reports.
EV manufacturers like Tesla have switched to using LFP batteries for some models, such as the Model 3, and MIT says that these batteries have already been popular in China for a few years. Ford has announced it will use LFP batteries in the 2023 Mach-E starting in the 2023 and 2024 F-150 Lightning models, but for now, it will need to import them, as there are currently no LFP manufacturers in the U.S. However, MIT reports that several are in the works in addition to Ford’s factory.
Ford’s new facility is due to open in 2026, MIT says. It represents a $3.5 billion investment in the EV market and will be the first factory of its type in the U.S. “This is a big deal,” said Michigan governor Gretchen Whitmer at the announcing the plan.
Tesla supplier CATL unveils battery that can add up to 400km (250 miles) of range in 10 minutes
CATL, the Chinese battery giant and a major supplier to Tesla, has unveiled its latest product that aims to solve electric vehicles’ charging and range limitations. The battery, dubbed Shenxing or “god-like movement,” is able to refuel up to 400 kilometers (250 miles) of range in 10 minutes, Gao Han, chief technology officer of CATL’s e-car division, said at a launch briefing on Wednesday.
That means vehicles powered by Shenxing can drive from New York to Boston (about 215 miles) after just 10 minutes of fast charging. Mass production of the battery is expected to be underway by the end of 2023, with shipping to begin in 2024.
Shenxing claims to be “the world’s first 4C superfast charging LFP battery. “LFP stands for lithium iron phosphate, a type of battery chemistry that Tesla widely adapted in 2021 for its shorter-range cars in place of nickel-cobalt-aluminum.
China is a big proponent of LFP, a technology spearheaded by its renewable energy darling CATL, which topped the global EV battery market with a 35% share in Q1, according to research firm SNE. This type of battery is known for its cheap prices and chemical stability, though it has a lower energy density than other battery chemistries, which is a drag on EVs’ range.
CATL’s extraordinary growth has been buoyed by an EV boom in China over the last few years. But the EV industry is decelerating as government subsidies shrink and consumption contracts amid a post-COVID economic downturn. Meanwhile, the Fujian-based battery manufacturers face heated competition from BYD, the Chinese EV giant that also makes its own battery. In Q1, BYD trailed CATL in second place with a 16.2% share of the global EV battery market
In a US first, new EV battery cells will be made with recycled metals
Four companies will together produce new lithium-ion EV batteries that contain recycled metals in a US first.
Global battery maker BASF, Florida-HQ’ed graphene energy storage maker Nanotech Energy, Reno-based lithium-ion battery recycling company American Battery Technology Company (ABTC), and Ontario-based TODA Advanced Materials that produces metal hydroxide materials for rechargeable battery makers will together work to create this domestic closed-loop system for lithium-ion EV battery cells.
Or, as Daniel Schönfelder, senior vice president battery base metals and recycling at BASF, succinctly put it, “This enables BASF and Nanotech to produce lithium-ion batteries with locally recycled content.”
Here’s how it’s going to work: ABTC will recycle battery scrap and off-spec material created at Nanotech’s pilot operation in Chico, California, and at Nanotech’s planned commercial factory.
The recycled metals will then be converted into an electrochemically active material, and that requires two steps: precursor production and cathode active materials production.
A battery precursor is the material at the final step before it becomes a cathode or an ingredient from which a cathode is formed. The cathode material is the key raw material that drives the battery’s performance.
TODA will produce new precursors, and BASF will produce new cathode active materials in Battle Creek, Michigan, from the battery-grade metals, such as nickel, cobalt, manganese, and lithium, that ABTC recovers.
Nanotech will then use those recycled materials again in its battery cell production. Commercial production of the closed-loop cycle will launch in 2024.
Using recycled metals in new lithium-ion EV battery production can reduce the CO2 impact of batteries by about 25% compared to the use of primary metals from mines, according to BASF, which has been providing recycling services and cathode active material based on recycled metals in Asia for years. BASF also recently announced battery recycling capacity in Europe.
07-19-23, 11:42 AM
