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Nobody needed a crystal ball for this one. Just common sense. Government floods the market with money for green initiatives. Everybody wants a piece of the pie so they immediately claim to be all in. Businesses that can barely turn around model updates every 4 years claim they are going to completely redefined their entire business in 8 years while maintaining profitability. Not to mention the infrastructure isn't even close to being able to support it.
How have they changed the look of their EQ cars? They said from the very beginning that they would combine the EQ and traditional cars into one EV car.
Here we go again. Demand for EVs has not softened, its grown. Market share is growing, not shrinking. Every year more consumers are buying EVs, not fewer...
Carmakers over estimated the demand for EVs, thats different than demand shrinking.
What he's saying is you are letting the media control what you like and dislike. The very thing you want to avoid is what you are actually doing. Difference is you are wired to do the opposite of what the media "wants you to do", the net result is the same...the media controls you.
Make decisions independently. Any media or government push for EVs doesn't impact my desires or decision making in the slightest. I think if you were free of the bias the media is creating for you, you would be EV's biggest fan. Go drive a BMW i7, there is nothing there you wouldn't absolutely love. It’s like an LS430 improved by the hand of God.
LOL we can leave it here but DO NOT tell me I don’t make independent decisions or let the media control my desires or decision making (lollllllllll). I hate the news and all media.
About the EQS they are moving in a different direction with the EVs, mostly because of looks. I think it’s a smart move.
Don’t shoot the messenger! I just don’t think a lot of people expected the backpedaling (not demise). Like I said I think Toyota has been smart. The EV Blazer is MT’s SUV of the year and there’s a stop/sale on it.
LOL we can leave it here but DO NOT tell me I don’t make independent decisions or let the media control my desires or decision making (lollllllllll). I hate the news and all media.
About the EQS they are moving in a different direction with the EVs, mostly because of looks. I think it’s a smart move.
You still haven't shown us any proof that the EV market is shrinking. It continues to grow, not shrink. 2021 grew larger than 2020. 2022 grew larger than 2021 and so on. EV share has been increasing it's not shrinking, share increased by 28.9 percent Jan 2024. The issue legacy automakers are facing is demand has slowed, you're mistaking that as some ominous sign.
Why is it that EV commercials bother you? What about all those Toyota, Lexus, GM commercials telling me how I needed to surprise my wife with a new car? I remember Shaq trying to sell me a GM. Didn't really bother me
The other false narrative that happens is when percentage of growth declines it's conflated as less demand which is stupid.
so if sales went from 500 to 1000 in one year that's 100% growth. But if next year it went from 1000 to 1750 that's 'only' 75% growth yet numerically it still grew at a larger amount (750 vs 500) than the prior year.
Lots of deliberate math fail in journalism for the clicks.
The other false narrative that happens is when percentage of growth declines it's conflated as less demand which is stupid.
so if sales went from 500 to 1000 in one year that's 100% growth. But if next year it went from 1000 to 1750 that's 'only' 75% growth yet numerically it still grew at a larger amount (750 vs 500) than the prior year.
Lots of deliberate math fail in journalism for the clicks.
Exactly. Slower than anticipated growth doesn't equal a reversal. It just means you're going to sell less than you projected
LOL we can leave it here but DO NOT tell me I don’t make independent decisions or let the media control my desires or decision making (lollllllllll). I hate the news and all media.
Your hatred of the news and media is just another way it controls you.
Is it reasonable to assume that in 2030 EVs will have 30% more range, charge 30% faster and be cheaper? If that happens auto makers that doubled down on petrol propulsion will pay a heavy price.
Is it reasonable to assume that in 2030 EVs will have 30% more range, charge 30% faster and be cheaper? If that happens auto makers that doubled down on petrol propulsion will pay a heavy price.
You mean like Toyota, that possibly could have held the EV crown instead of Tesla?
On this particular subject, I was talking to one of my friends recently who had a RAV4 EV back in 2014. I had no idea until he told me, but it was running on the Roadster drivetrain. Imagine if they just had the foresight to continue development, there would probably not be a Model 3 or Y today, but some Toyota EV selling in the millions. Just baffles the mind
Your hatred of the news and media is just another way it controls you.
There is a big difference between you and me in this way: you said you don’t mind if government or regulations shape automobiles (paraphrasing). That’s your opinion and obviously you are entitled to it.
The thought of government interfering in a free market disgusts me, and so do regulations and just government in general. Stay out of my life. Take my 40lbs of junk mail I get a week, start on that, and leave my V8s alone.
Please don’t infer I’m stupid enough to be affected by the media. Like you guys thought I really meant that bc Knoxville is full of Land Cruisers, so they must have sold 4 million of them. All I ever said was there’s a lot around here. I don’t think you’re (or anyone regular on here) stupid enough to be fooled by them, please extend me the same courtesy.
The thought of government interfering in a free market disgusts me, .....
Reality is about 10,000x more nuanced than simply saying, stay out of my life. Regulations have made cars exponentially safer would you rather have cars with no safety and emissions standards of any kind? That's what we would have without oversight, in fact we DID have just that. Auto makers fought bitterly to stop said regulations. Seems vaguely familiar to what is happening now.
On one hand we see the argument that EVs are being forced onto the market and at the same time EVs are not going to replace petrol cars anytime soon. So which is it?
No way. Teslas, one of their main draws is the coolness factor. Toyotas are many things but “cool” in the way a Tesla is they are not.
I don’t think anyone could do what Tesla has done, except them.
Toyota does one thing well, and that's build solid, reliable and comfortable cars, which is why Toyota and Lexus buyers are so loyal. Only Honda owners surpass Toyota in loyalty. Toyota doesn't care about cool, which is actually a plus. Imagine a Tesla drivetrain on a no nonsense Camry, Corolla, RAV4, etc. The only issue I could foresee is that Toyota is more conservative and doesn't like taking risks like Tesla, but that can also be a positive in their favor in the eyes of Toyota owners.
I've met several people who bought the RAV4 EV, and they loved it, were loyal, and highly disappointed when Toyota abandoned it. Toyota could have acquired Tesla, or moved on from Tesla competing with them. But, that's the past, you can't turn the clock back
Imagine if they just had the foresight to continue development, there would probably not be a Model 3 or Y today, but some Toyota EV selling in the millions. Just baffles the mind
i don't believe that could have happened. 2014 is only 10 years ago and tesla was already down many paths at that point, and the roadster platform obviously was not even their own future.
and with toyota's heavy reliance on a large supplier chain, it would probably have taken then most of that 10 years to get to a model 3/Y type product even with full effort. it's just hard to turn a giant ship.
short term, toyota has, correctly imo, determined MOST car buyers are NOT interested in ev's yet. the charging network isn't widespread enough, the cars cost too much to make unless you're tesla who focused fanatically on this and has many first mover advantages.
toyota decided to go harder on hybirds and it's paid off well for them. now the counter argument is "but at what cost as the market transitions to ev's"? well, despite them being a frankenstein kind of vehicle... hybrids and PHEVs have a lot of complexity including battery management, conditioning, etc. they're just smaller batteries than full ev's. let's put aside other tesla unique features and the charging network (obviously a huge put aside, but just for now)...
toyota obviously decided it didn't need to rush into ev's and lose lots of money on every one (like ford, gm, lucid, rivian, etc). i've no doubt it's busy working on more now though. it sitll could turn out that they become a formidable and huge ev player. when? who knows.
it's kind of funny to think how much they've invested in hydrogen fuel cell vehicles though, which are DOA for consumers.
i don't believe that could have happened. 2014 is only 10 years ago and tesla was already down many paths at that point, and the roadster platform obviously was not even their own future.
and with toyota's heavy reliance on a large supplier chain, it would probably have taken then most of that 10 years to get to a model 3/Y type product even with full effort. it's just hard to turn a giant ship.
short term, toyota has, correctly imo, determined MOST car buyers are NOT interested in ev's yet. the charging network isn't widespread enough, the cars cost too much to make unless you're tesla who focused fanatically on this and has many first mover advantages.
toyota decided to go harder on hybirds and it's paid off well for them. now the counter argument is "but at what cost as the market transitions to ev's"? well, despite them being a frankenstein kind of vehicle... hybrids and PHEVs have a lot of complexity including battery management, conditioning, etc. they're just smaller batteries than full ev's. let's put aside other tesla unique features and the charging network (obviously a huge put aside, but just for now)...
toyota obviously decided it didn't need to rush into ev's and lose lots of money on every one (like ford, gm, lucid, rivian, etc). i've no doubt it's busy working on more now though. it sitll could turn out that they become a formidable and huge ev player. when? who knows.
it's kind of funny to think how much they've invested in hydrogen fuel cell vehicles though, which are DOA for consumers.
I personally think it's smart Toyota/Lexus is doubling down and focusing on Hybrids and PHEV's. They remain highly profitable and sell extremely well. But I still believe had they built on their partnership with Tesla on continued on the BEV path, it would have paid off and BEV's would be profitable for them today.
But you are right, they are a big company, and it's hard to steer a giant ship. Tesla being a speedboat can easier do this
02-25-24, 09:00 AM
