General EV Conversation
12-13-23, 11:31 AM
#661
Lexus Fanatic
Yes sir. Realistically probably over 1 million per car. Halo product is very valuable pays for itself many times over, F-150 Lightning is not that.
Rivian is ramping up production as fast as possible. Tesla had it much harder they were the only company trying to push EVs in volume, first mover advantage is also first mover cost. Supply chain is now much more mature and battery prices are plummeting.
Rivian is currently losing $33k per vehicle they sell and average sale price is $80k. I don't know the figures for other manufacturers, but I do know that to be the case for Rivian as it came out on a recent earnings call. I've got their stock, so I'm certainly rooting for them to accelerate to break even! It's just the nature of the beast. Tesla was on the verge of bankruptcy as the model 3 was coming out. It's why Musk was sleeping at the factory. They were on razor's edge and he was doing all he could do keep production on target to keep them going.
12-13-23, 11:34 AM
#662
Lexus Champion
Rivian does need to ramp up, the reason I wasn’t aware they’re losing money is because there are tons around. But mostly the SUV.
12-13-23, 11:34 AM
#663
Pole Position
I really don't get the focus on anyone other than Tesla incurring losses, they are an inevitable consequence of a launch. New EVs don't design themselves, factories don't build themselves, sales and marketing isn't free and so on. Some like Ford are also restructuring into EV divisions and pushing losses into the new EV divisions. Losses do carry forward, of course, and will shield future profits from tax, and the R&D can sometimes be offset by certain tax credits. The big number per vehicle losses are simply someone dividing the overall operating or tax losses by vehicles sold, but that doesn't reflect the operating margin per vehicle which may well still be a loss but it's not 35K on a 50K EV.
12-13-23, 11:36 AM
#664
Lexus Fanatic
Tesla builds a factory for what Ford spends per year on advertising.
12-13-23, 02:52 PM
#665
Lexus Fanatic
I really don't get the focus on anyone other than Tesla incurring losses, they are an inevitable consequence of a launch. New EVs don't design themselves, factories don't build themselves, sales and marketing isn't free and so on. Some like Ford are also restructuring into EV divisions and pushing losses into the new EV divisions. Losses do carry forward, of course, and will shield future profits from tax, and the R&D can sometimes be offset by certain tax credits. The big number per vehicle losses are simply someone dividing the overall operating or tax losses by vehicles sold, but that doesn't reflect the operating margin per vehicle which may well still be a loss but it's not 35K on a 50K EV.
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AMIRZA786 (12-13-23)
12-13-23, 03:16 PM
#666
Lexus Fanatic
Let's say it costs $4 billion to build a factory. Average price of the vehicle from that factory is $80,000 and you make 10% profit. That means you have to sell 500,000 cars to make back your money, but that doesn't account for any production costs. Given this it's simple to see that without volume you're dead in the water or you have to be like Ferrari and have a very high cost car.
Tesla didn't become net profitable until 2020 guess how many cars they sold that year.
Tesla didn't become net profitable until 2020 guess how many cars they sold that year.
12-13-23, 03:18 PM
#667
Lexus Fanatic
Let's say it costs $4 billion to build a factory. Average price of the vehicle from that factory is $80,000 and you make 10% profit. That means you have to sell 500,000 cars to make back your money, but that doesn't account for any production costs. Given this it's simple to see that without volume you're dead in the water or you have to be like Ferrari and have a very high cost car.
Tesla didn't become net profitable until 2020 guess how many cars they sold that year.
Tesla didn't become net profitable until 2020 guess how many cars they sold that year.
12-14-23, 07:11 AM
#668
Racer
Thread Starter
I wanted to share a post I read on a BMW forum earlier today from someone who drove Teslas for many years and has moved on to other EVs. With the exception of Cybertruck, this is similar to my experience and how I feel about the Tesla brand/Tesla cars.
Source: Bimmerpost
I bolded the parts I really identified with, the main part being:
Again, with the exception of Cybertruck, I think this was very well said and I feel the same way. I love the styling of our Model Y, the power, ease of which the car can be thrown around, but hate all the vibrations that make their way through to the cabin, the terrible ride quality, the instability at highway speeds (80+ feels like it's getting ready to bounce off the road and I have to do a lot of work to keep it going straight and cruising). It's not an "easy" manual driving experience on the highway, and I don't love a lot of things about Autopilot. Autopilot has a lot to be improved, IMO. I also really hate how "clear" the glass in the Tesla isn't. The windshield, side glass, etc all has distortions in it. So yeah, I loved the Tesla, it's been a great time for the most part but is lacking in a lot of ways and now we're in a time where other manufacturers who make better cars are now making better EVs.
I think Teslas were next level and offered a lot more than most competing cars for a long time when S, X, 3, and Y first came out, but that was a loooong time ago. Many cars have come and gone in that time and we're still left with the same cars that are now falling behind the competition.
If it wasn't for the Cybertruck, our Model Y would be our first and last Tesla.
We are on our 6th EV. First was a Chevy Volt (run primarily on electric). Then on to a Model X. Had it for many years.. and were quite happy with it.
However, once mainstream manufacturers with long-term auto manufacturing and design processes started making competitive EV's, we moved away from the Tesla. We really got tired doors which rattled, the endless road and air noise around the cabin at highway speeds, and the utilitarian layout of the cabin. We loved the X, but it served its purpose and it was time to move on to vehicles with a higher level of design and manufacture.
Had a Taycan Turbo S but got tired of things breaking and having it sit in the service bay for weeks on end. It drove really well, was very comfortable, but largely unreliable (inc a main battery replacement and A/C which failed twice). The Porsche was also pretty brain dead from an operator and user interface standpoint. Porsche was going to make a knobless interface customer-be-damned and it showed. Its like nobody ever road tested the car. Designed by guys in lab coats with no real-world feed back. If I bought a "designed by Porsche" toaster, I would want to see how it actually made toast... The Porsche did nothing more than elevate my brand loyalty to BMW.
Anyway...
We've had an i8 roadster for years, and understand its absolutely not a practical vehicle, so we purchased an iX M60. We are very happy with the tech, comfort and performance of the iX. Its a very good car built by a very good car company and it shows. IMHO: Its a much better, more "complete" car than the Model X.
Now we are waiting on our i7 M70 (currently sitting at the dock in Bremmerhaven). My wife refused to drive the Porsche so we traded it on the i7. Neither of us miss the Porsche. It was a nice head-turner for sure but was compromised in so many ways. Ultimately there will be an i8, iX, and i7 in our garage (with an M4 as a track car and a GMC as a tow vehicle to pull it).
We loved our Tesla, but it had served its purpose. It was an amazing vehicle that spanned the gap while other manufacturers (like BMW) got their EV lineup together. Established vehicle manufacturers are now offering vehicles which easily compete and often surpass the Teslas in many ways. No hard feelings but time to move on...
IMHO: BMW makes a much better car - and now that also includes EV's...
However, once mainstream manufacturers with long-term auto manufacturing and design processes started making competitive EV's, we moved away from the Tesla. We really got tired doors which rattled, the endless road and air noise around the cabin at highway speeds, and the utilitarian layout of the cabin. We loved the X, but it served its purpose and it was time to move on to vehicles with a higher level of design and manufacture.
Had a Taycan Turbo S but got tired of things breaking and having it sit in the service bay for weeks on end. It drove really well, was very comfortable, but largely unreliable (inc a main battery replacement and A/C which failed twice). The Porsche was also pretty brain dead from an operator and user interface standpoint. Porsche was going to make a knobless interface customer-be-damned and it showed. Its like nobody ever road tested the car. Designed by guys in lab coats with no real-world feed back. If I bought a "designed by Porsche" toaster, I would want to see how it actually made toast... The Porsche did nothing more than elevate my brand loyalty to BMW.
Anyway...
We've had an i8 roadster for years, and understand its absolutely not a practical vehicle, so we purchased an iX M60. We are very happy with the tech, comfort and performance of the iX. Its a very good car built by a very good car company and it shows. IMHO: Its a much better, more "complete" car than the Model X.
Now we are waiting on our i7 M70 (currently sitting at the dock in Bremmerhaven). My wife refused to drive the Porsche so we traded it on the i7. Neither of us miss the Porsche. It was a nice head-turner for sure but was compromised in so many ways. Ultimately there will be an i8, iX, and i7 in our garage (with an M4 as a track car and a GMC as a tow vehicle to pull it).
We loved our Tesla, but it had served its purpose. It was an amazing vehicle that spanned the gap while other manufacturers (like BMW) got their EV lineup together. Established vehicle manufacturers are now offering vehicles which easily compete and often surpass the Teslas in many ways. No hard feelings but time to move on...
IMHO: BMW makes a much better car - and now that also includes EV's...
I bolded the parts I really identified with, the main part being:
We loved our Tesla, but it had served its purpose. It was an amazing vehicle that spanned the gap while other manufacturers (like BMW) got their EV lineup together. Established vehicle manufacturers are now offering vehicles which easily compete and often surpass the Teslas in many ways. No hard feelings but time to move on...
I think Teslas were next level and offered a lot more than most competing cars for a long time when S, X, 3, and Y first came out, but that was a loooong time ago. Many cars have come and gone in that time and we're still left with the same cars that are now falling behind the competition.
If it wasn't for the Cybertruck, our Model Y would be our first and last Tesla.
Last edited by signdetres; 12-14-23 at 07:21 AM.
12-14-23, 07:26 AM
#669
Pole Position
I wanted to share a post I read on a BMW forum earlier today from someone who drove Teslas for many years and has moved on to other EVs. With the exception of Cybertruck, this is similar to my experience and how I feel about the Tesla brand/Tesla cars.
Source: Bimmerpost
I bolded the parts I really identified with, the main part being:
Again, with the exception of Cybertruck, I think this was very well said and I feel the same way. I love the styling of our Model Y, the power, ease of which the car can be thrown around, but hate all the vibrations that make their way through to the cabin, the terrible ride quality, the instability at highway speeds (80+ feels like it's getting ready to bounce off the road and I have to do a lot of work to keep it going straight and cruising). It's not an "easy" manual driving experience on the highway, and I don't love a lot of things about Autopilot. Autopilot has a lot to be improved, IMO. I also really hate how "clear" the glass in the Tesla isn't. The windshield, side glass, etc all has distortions in it. So yeah, I loved the Tesla, it's been a great time for the most part but is lacking in a lot of ways.
If it wasn't for the Cybertruck, our Model Y would be our first and last Tesla.
Source: Bimmerpost
I bolded the parts I really identified with, the main part being:
Again, with the exception of Cybertruck, I think this was very well said and I feel the same way. I love the styling of our Model Y, the power, ease of which the car can be thrown around, but hate all the vibrations that make their way through to the cabin, the terrible ride quality, the instability at highway speeds (80+ feels like it's getting ready to bounce off the road and I have to do a lot of work to keep it going straight and cruising). It's not an "easy" manual driving experience on the highway, and I don't love a lot of things about Autopilot. Autopilot has a lot to be improved, IMO. I also really hate how "clear" the glass in the Tesla isn't. The windshield, side glass, etc all has distortions in it. So yeah, I loved the Tesla, it's been a great time for the most part but is lacking in a lot of ways.
If it wasn't for the Cybertruck, our Model Y would be our first and last Tesla.
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signdetres (12-14-23)
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12-14-23, 10:02 AM
#671
Lexus Champion
I know you love your EQS @signdetres over your Y, but for travelling, there is no other car I would want to drive other than my Y. My last trip in my Polestar in February, I spent so much time finding available chargers and charging, I was almost wishing I had brought my Sienna
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Mike728 (12-14-23)
12-14-23, 10:23 AM
#672
Racer
Thread Starter
That's one of my biggest complaints and why I would not buy an non Tesla as a "travel" vehicle. Just got back last night from a 1,200 mile trip in my Model Y, and charging was a no brainer. Plenty of chargers on the way, and when I got to SoCal, I had my pick my chargers wherever I went. I would base it on the pricing, for example one that was 5 minutes away was priced at .44 cents per kWh and one that was 10 minutes way was priced at .23 cents per Kwh. While in SoCal, I was literally driving from one end of SoCal to the other easily doing nearly 100 miles a day for four days straight, and had I had a non Tesla, charging would have been a bit of an issue. I never once had any problems finding nearby Tesla chargers, no matter what part of SoCal I had to go to.
I know you love your EQS @signdetres over your Y, but for travelling, there is no other car I would want to drive other than my Y. My last trip in my Polestar in February, I spent so much time finding available chargers and charging, I was almost wishing I had brought my Sienna
I know you love your EQS @signdetres over your Y, but for travelling, there is no other car I would want to drive other than my Y. My last trip in my Polestar in February, I spent so much time finding available chargers and charging, I was almost wishing I had brought my Sienna
In addition, this year adapters will be becoming available for non-Teslas so they can start using Tesla Superchargers. The following year cars will be shipping with NACS ports so they too will be able to use Tesla Superchargers.
The remaining advantage/exclusivity that Tesla’s have, their access to the most reliable and available charging network, will soon be a thing of the past as all EVs will be able to charge everywhere.
12-14-23, 10:26 AM
#673
Lexus Champion
That’s totally fine, different strokes for different folks. If you prioritize charging stations, that’s ok. I prioritize my comfort and well being on long trips.
In addition, this year adapters will be becoming available for non-Teslas so they can start using Tesla Superchargers. The following year cars will be shipping with NACS ports so they too will be able to use Tesla Superchargers.
The remaining advantage/exclusivity that Tesla’s have, their access to the most reliable and available charging network, will soon be a thing of the past as all EVs will be able to charge everywhere.
In addition, this year adapters will be becoming available for non-Teslas so they can start using Tesla Superchargers. The following year cars will be shipping with NACS ports so they too will be able to use Tesla Superchargers.
The remaining advantage/exclusivity that Tesla’s have, their access to the most reliable and available charging network, will soon be a thing of the past as all EVs will be able to charge everywhere.
) wouldn't buy a non Tesla for travel outside of my area, meaning Bay Area
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signdetres (12-14-23)
12-14-23, 01:41 PM
#674
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
but with on the road charging becoming widely available, tesla will need to upgrade their products, or continue a race downward on price.
the 3/Y quality has improved and highland changes are nice. but is it enough?
i find it incredible that tesla still can't have showrooms or sell cars in the state its headquartered in (texas)!
the S and X are now pretty old, although obviously the electric drivetrain is very very good, but it seems like they're all good and close in range really.
it seems to me the 3/Y are firmly going after corolla/camry/civic/accord/rav4/other-cuv's... as more people see an ev in their life as viable, if people realize the ev is somewhat or a LOT cheaper, then it really works in tesla's favor. but i don't think tesla's car 'features' provide much value over anything else, and fsd is imo definitely not work $12K or whatever until it really lives up to its name.
i hope they sell a ton of CTs even though i don't wanna see 'em on the road.
like it or not, the CT *is* a huge innovation and bold move by tesla.
love the rear steer, the air suspension travel, the huge interior space, etc.
looking forward to see more real world reviews.
globally though, tesla needs the model 2, bringing it's lessons learned, manufacturing skill and price points to really go after huge volume.
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signdetres (12-14-23)
12-14-23, 01:53 PM
#675
Lexus Champion
kind of makes you wonder, if tesla is shooting themselves in the foot by opening up the SC network to everyone. i assume non-tesla customers will pay a premium over teslas for charging perhaps? either way, i wonder how profitable the SC network is given that tesla has to buy the electricity from the grid mostly.
but with on the road charging becoming widely available, tesla will need to upgrade their products, or continue a race downward on price.
the 3/Y quality has improved and highland changes are nice. but is it enough?
i find it incredible that tesla still can't have showrooms or sell cars in the state its headquartered in (texas)!
the S and X are now pretty old, although obviously the electric drivetrain is very very good, but it seems like they're all good and close in range really.
it seems to me the 3/Y are firmly going after corolla/camry/civic/accord/rav4/other-cuv's... as more people see an ev in their life as viable, if people realize the ev is somewhat or a LOT cheaper, then it really works in tesla's favor. but i don't think tesla's car 'features' provide much value over anything else, and fsd is imo definitely not work $12K or whatever until it really lives up to its name.
i hope they sell a ton of CTs even though i don't wanna see 'em on the road.
like it or not, the CT *is* a huge innovation and bold move by tesla.
love the rear steer, the air suspension travel, the huge interior space, etc.
looking forward to see more real world reviews.
globally though, tesla needs the model 2, bringing it's lessons learned, manufacturing skill and price points to really go after huge volume.
but with on the road charging becoming widely available, tesla will need to upgrade their products, or continue a race downward on price.
the 3/Y quality has improved and highland changes are nice. but is it enough?
i find it incredible that tesla still can't have showrooms or sell cars in the state its headquartered in (texas)!
the S and X are now pretty old, although obviously the electric drivetrain is very very good, but it seems like they're all good and close in range really.
it seems to me the 3/Y are firmly going after corolla/camry/civic/accord/rav4/other-cuv's... as more people see an ev in their life as viable, if people realize the ev is somewhat or a LOT cheaper, then it really works in tesla's favor. but i don't think tesla's car 'features' provide much value over anything else, and fsd is imo definitely not work $12K or whatever until it really lives up to its name.
i hope they sell a ton of CTs even though i don't wanna see 'em on the road.
like it or not, the CT *is* a huge innovation and bold move by tesla.
love the rear steer, the air suspension travel, the huge interior space, etc.
looking forward to see more real world reviews.
globally though, tesla needs the model 2, bringing it's lessons learned, manufacturing skill and price points to really go after huge volume.