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OK, if you drive 5 miles to the store and back going 30 mph LoL 🤣🤣 Combined hwy and City it's 48 MPG. One of my co-workers has one so I've seen the mileage it gets. The Model Y gets 122 MPGe, or 28 kWh per 100 miles:
Anecdotal evidence tends to be of less value (not to mention you seem to be confusing mpg with mpge). As I said, the MPGe numbers that directly compare the cars are from the EPA.
Prius Prime - 127 mpge Tesla Y - from 111 to 123 mpge
Which tends to bolster the findings in the OP that show that the Prius PHEV is the greenest and most efficient car in the USA when you compare the entire lifecycle and other factors. And since you seem to be so fixated on the Tesla, I'll point out that car does not show up at all even in the top 12 greenest/most efficient cars, so not even sure why we discussing that.
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Which tends to bolster the findings in the OP that show that the Prius PHEV is the greenest and most efficient car in the USA when you compare the entire lifecycle and other factors. And since you seem to be so fixated on the Tesla, I'll point out that car does not show up at all even in the top 12 greenest/most efficient cars, so not even sure why we discussing that.
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As I mentioned earlier, I think that data is BS, any car that burns gasoline is not greener than a vehicle that has zero emissions. Also as I mentioned earlier, I can care less, I'm not an environmentalist.
As I mentioned earlier, I think that data is BS, any car that burns gasoline is not greener than a vehicle that has zero emissions. Also as I mentioned earlier, I can care less. Enjoy your Prius
That's because you just think about emissions during customer usage, which is only one of MANY factors that can affect how green and efficient a car is.
Fortunately, there are environmental organizations that care enough to take the time to actually gather comprehensive data that includes the full life cycle of these cars (as well as car usage patterns of people). This allows them to have a more accurate picture of the total impact of those cars on our environment.
That's because you just think about emissions during customer usage, which is only one of MANY factors that can affect how green and efficient a car is.
Fortunately, there are environmental organizations that care enough to take the time to actually gather comprehensive data that includes the full life cycle of these cars (as well as car usage patterns of people). This allows them to have a more accurate picture of the total impact of those cars on our environment.
And my daily driver is an RX 450h+
Well you've made your point. I'll respectfully disagree with you, but you've made your point loud and clear.
they say the 'study' is based on full lifecycle impact, not just fuel economy... fair enough:
GreenerCars is an annual assessment of every new model in the U.S. light-duty vehicle market. It is based on a lifecycle assessment of the greenhouse gas and criteria pollutant emissions from the production, use, and disposal of each vehicle. Unlike other evaluations of the health and environmental impact of vehicles that rely solely on fuel-efficiency, GreenerCars scores every vehicle on its entire impact and is the most effective way to compare gasoline-powered vehicles to electric vehicles. In addition to assessing the emissions from fuel burned in a vehicle’s engine, we assess the upstream emissions generated by electricity used by a vehicle, emissions produced when mining and processing minerals for batteries, and emissions from manufacturing vehicles and vehicle components. Green scores are generated for each model and can be used to assess how green a vehicle is. Users can also assess vehicles based on their class so that they can make the greenest purchase that meets their mobility needs.
but the FIRST chart in the article below that, under title "Greenest List" is about fuel economy.
The electric vehicles on the Greenest List had the lowest fueling costs because of their higher efficiency. EVs and plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) models topped the list.
tesla isn't even in the list, and the prius prime se phev they say costs $529 to go 15,000 miles. how can that possibly be true?
let's say it gets 60mpg on real world use. that's 250 gallons of gas. at $4/gallon let's say, that's $1000, not $529!
now if all the driving is local using battery only, using it more like a golf cart, then sure, it could be lower cost. but the chart seems contrived to make a point based on an agenda.
besides, if the article is supposed to be about 'full lifecycle' impact of a vehicle, why make the very first chart about fuel economy?
so let's forget the article and go to their 'complete ratings' page here instead:
a page with not much on it but does have a link to download their "Rating the Environmental Impacts of Motor Vehicles: ACEEE’s greenercars.org Methodology, 2016 Edition"
2016?
even better, the link didn't work for me.
but there are links to their 'evolving' methodology, so here's the one for 2024:
clicking the first link to Q3 2023 sales shows this graph.
the pdf for 2024 methodology changes is hard for me to follow but one bit was about revised assessment of sulphur emissions from refineries now being lowered.
i gather the overall scores for ev's include environmental impact from the generation of electricity to charge vehicles. it's still hard for me to imagine that that's worse than drilling for oil and refining.
i'm no greenie, but the green scores don't pass the smell test to me.
if you really believe a prius phev is better for the world than a tesla, i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because 'greener cars' pages certainly haven't convinced me.
have you ever driven a full bev? you'd have to be in a great state of denial to think a prius drives better than a tesla or any bev.
they say the 'study' is based on full lifecycle impact, not just fuel economy... fair enough:
but the FIRST chart in the article below that, under title "Greenest List" is about fuel economy.
tesla isn't even in the list, and the prius prime se phev they say costs $529 to go 15,000 miles. how can that possibly be true?
let's say it gets 60mpg on real world use. that's 250 gallons of gas. at $4/gallon let's say, that's $1000, not $529!
now if all the driving is local using battery only, using it more like a golf cart, then sure, it could be lower cost. but the chart seems contrived to make a point based on an agenda.
besides, if the article is supposed to be about 'full lifecycle' impact of a vehicle, why make the very first chart about fuel economy?
so let's forget the article and go to their 'complete ratings' page here instead:
a page with not much on it but does have a link to download their "Rating the Environmental Impacts of Motor Vehicles: ACEEE’s greenercars.org Methodology, 2016 Edition"
2016?
even better, the link didn't work for me.
but there are links to their 'evolving' methodology, so here's the one for 2024:
clicking the first link to Q3 2023 sales shows this graph.
the pdf for 2024 methodology changes is hard for me to follow but one bit was about revised assessment of sulphur emissions from refineries now being lowered.
i gather the overall scores for ev's include environmental impact from the generation of electricity to charge vehicles. it's still hard for me to imagine that that's worse than drilling for oil and refining.
i'm no greenie, but the green scores don't pass the smell test to me.
if you really believe a prius phev is better for the world than a tesla, i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because 'greener cars' pages certainly haven't convinced me.
have you ever driven a full bev? you'd have to be in a great state of denial to think a prius drives better than a tesla or any bev.
Kudos to you for digging in and doing some reading
Why would a tesla be on that list of 12 most fuel efficient cars in USA when it's NOT considered one of the top 12 in the study? It's like asking why the Hummer isn't on that list (although the Hummer did end up on the worst list)
"and the prius prime se phev they say costs $529 to go 15,000 miles. how can that possibly be true?"
Yes! It is possible to do 15k miles in a year for that amount of fuel simply because the Prime is a plug in. The EV range of the Prime is 44 miles, and the vast majority of people don't go 44 miles every day at all. In fact, usage is much less at an average of 37 miles a day, so I am thinking they would take this average use pattern.
So, depending on gas prices, and I assume they standardized gas prices for ALL the cars that need it in order to be fair, then yes it's very very likely you can only spend sub $1000 on gas the entire year because most of the time you'll simply be using EV most days!
Plus, that data that they analyzed is from the U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA, a goverment agency. Maybe you should talk to them? I can't imagine why THEY would have an agenda, especially give the USA's mandates.
Btw, you'd be surprised how good mileage helps in a hybrid. We drive between FL and NJ, and we pay much less than $100 in gas (usually in the $70 range if I remember) to get from one to the other state in my old, less efficient, non-plugin 2010 Prius.
*like a golf cart, then sure, it could be lower cost. but the chart seems contrived to make a point based on an agenda."
The top speed of the Prius Prime in EV mode is 84 mph before it is forced to switch to HV, so that's hardly a "golf cart".
And using data and looking at patterns of behavior in populations to derive conclusions is not "contriving" something.
And what agenda? You're like one of the extremists who believe someone has an agenda if they get results that you don't like.
This agency that did the study is definitely against ICE and for greener choices. Just because they crunched the data and and got results you don't like doesn't mean they're wrong. In fact, because they spent a hell lot more time analyzing the data than you and used up a lot more resources and time to derive their results, I'd weight their conclusions significantly heavier than yours - which seems to be based on mostly anecdotal and personal data, as well as the belief that HEV and PHEVS can never be considered "green", and that Tesla somehow should be on that list, no matter what results come up.
You seem to be approaching this with your bias already in place, and are simply looking to validate your beliefs no matter the study results.
I mean, I don't see you even noting that more than half the cars on the list are BEVs. I guess they don't count and it should be Tesla on that list...just...because....
"besides, if the article is supposed to be about 'full lifecycle' impact of a vehicle, why make the very first chart about fuel economy?"
Perhaps because you gotta start somewhere in a report summary (especially one that the lay public will read), and fuel economy is the one thing that directly impacts people first and can understand easily?
The point is so long as they do consider as many factors as possible in the study (which they do, if you look at their methodology), then it doesn't matter what they used first in this summary page.
"even better, the link didn't work for me."
Here is the full methodology report. Enjoy! I will read it as well.
Why would a tesla be on that list of 12 most fuel efficient cars in USA when it's NOT considered one of the top 12 in the study? It's like asking why the Hummer isn't on that list (although the Hummer did end up on the worst list)
the list makes NO SENSE.
the 'study' says it's about TOTAL environmental impact, but the "Greenest" list seems to be based ONLY on fuel economy / cost (including electricity) and what exactly is their "Green score" based on?
if it's based on fuel economy, there's no way a camry hybrid costs less to drive than a tesla or any ev. i'm not a tesla fanboy either.
Just because they crunched the data and and got results you don't like doesn't mean they're wrong. In fact, because they spent a hell lot more time analyzing the data than you and used up a lot more resources and time to derive their results, I'd weight their conclusions significantly heavier than yours - which seems to be based on mostly anecdotal and personal data, as well as the belief that HEV and PHEVS can never be considered "green", and that Tesla somehow should be on that list, no matter what results come up.
lol, you're right, government studies are never biased or wrong, just like consumer reports which you probably like too.
thanks for the links and follow up.
hey i'm not saying in any way that hybrids or plugin hybrids are 'bad' or not worthy of praise or that they're not a good choice for consumers. i just can't stand the droning noise of accelerating in a hybrid. they've gotten better, but they're not for me.
but now we're discussing THREE different things.
1) fuel economy and cost
2) environmental impact
3) personal preferences likes/dislikes
most people care about 1 and ev's charged at home win, hands down. it's not even close.
most people may say they care about 2 but it usually doesn't affect their buying decisions much.
people definitely care about 3...
hev's are phev's do better (fuel economy) in city driving (coincidentally, like ev's). and for short trips, obviously phev's can go electric only, which is great. on long highway trips the upside isn't as great, but cars like a prius prime are very optimized in terms of weight, aero, engine efficiency, and when utilized, the battery use and drivetrain. it's an impressive package no doubt. i even think the new prius is decent looking (finally). but i find hybrid drivetrains horrible, lol.
ev's for people who take a lot of trips say 100mi. or more, aren't as convenient, even teslas. but the charging infrastructure, speed of charging, range of batteries and drivetrain will improve. but for those willing to plan a bit for trips, or don't take many trips, ev's are not only fine, they're just wonderful in the way they drive. silent, fast, ridiculously cheap to own and operate.
the study though can't make up its mind if it wants to talk about 1 or 2.
03-02-24, 11:59 PM
