The greenest and most efficient car in the USA is NOT an EV
#76
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It's pretty obvious. Toyotas recent entry, the bz4x was an abject failure. After cancelling the RAV4 EV in 2014 (which was very popular in California) and hedging a failed bet on HEV, they tried to pivot back, but found securing batteries during the COVID shortages was difficult due to supply chain shortages, and they fell way behind. So the excuse was that they could build more Hybrids and phev's due to their smaller battery sizes. The fact is, Akio messed up, which is why he's no longer CEO. This has been discussed extensively in other threads.
That being said, if I was Toyota/Lexus I would continue to double down on hybrids and PHEV'S, as they still sell extremely well. But ultimately I believe if they had a decent BEV, it would outsell their hybrids, as Tesla conquest sales shows a decent percentage of their customers are coming from Toyota and Lexus
That being said, if I was Toyota/Lexus I would continue to double down on hybrids and PHEV'S, as they still sell extremely well. But ultimately I believe if they had a decent BEV, it would outsell their hybrids, as Tesla conquest sales shows a decent percentage of their customers are coming from Toyota and Lexus
And their hybrid bet has already been proven as the correct one recently, with sales growth outpacing BEVs and the company netting record profits.
https://www.businessinsider.com/toyo...us-bz4x-2024-2
Toyota, the originator of the hybrid-car craze in the early 2000s, is poised to reclaim its crown as the king of green cars.
As demand for battery-electric vehicles cools and more shoppers look toward hybrids, the Prius-maker is among the most well-suited to meet the current moment in the transition to electric cars.
After years of being labeled an EV laggard among its peers in the industry, customers don't appear to care that Toyota has so far released only one pretty unpopular electric car in the US (you know, the one with the wheels that literally fell off).
The Japanese automaker actually tops the list of brands most considered by EV shoppers in a recent survey — beating out Ford and Elon Musk's Tesla. It would appear Toyota's more hybrid-heavy approach to electric cars is alluring for the new breed of electric-car shopper, more frugal and practical than the early adopters that came before them.
#77
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I think they are saying that, with the same quantity of critical mineral resources, you can either put on the street: A) 1 BEV and 89 ICEs or B) 90 Hybrids. And in this scenario, Option B will result in 37 times less CO2 output than Option A. So their argument is it is better to use those critical mineral resources to produce 90 hybrids (to replace 90 ICEs) instead of 1 BEV (to replace only 1 ICE) if you want to cause a faster CO2 reduction for the planet
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LexTess (03-10-24)
#78
Lexus Test Driver
Here is an interesting video that touches on the limited supplies of the most crucial part of electric vehicles...this is why I think Toyota is thinking more comprehensively than other manufacturers, who are just jumping on the bandwagon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dnN82DsQ2k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dnN82DsQ2k
I still think nuclear power + hydrogen would be better long term.
No batteries needed.
It would require advancement in fuel cell tech.
TUrning H2 into raw electric, proton pumping electric.
Last edited by Margate330; 03-10-24 at 09:30 AM.
#79
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Now, what Toyota is arguing is this: suppose they have 2000 lbs (for sake of argument) of critical minerals. They can either use all those 2000 lbs to make 1 BEV and sell that, along with 89 ICE cars over the next couple of months. Or, they can use that 2000 lbs of critical minerals to instead build 90 Hybrids, and sell those over the next couple of months. They are saying that if those customers buy the 90 hybrids instead of buying 1 BEV and 89 ICE cars, they will do more for the environment. One way or another, they are going to sell 90 cars over the next couple of months. There simply aren't enough critical minerals to build and sell 90 BEVs over the next couple of months, which of course is the ultimate goal. So they are offering a shorter term alternative.
#80
Lexus Test Driver
With Lithium at 4x the price due to demand according to the video posted above, imagine the cost if Toyota went to all EV.
Add a whole lot more demand, maybe 5x, maybe 6x the cost?
This will affect the cost to other mfg's ALREADY making EV's who are still not yet making a profit.
Sounds like the mineral business is the only place where profit can be made except for a few companies like Tesla.
It was no accident. Lolol
Add a whole lot more demand, maybe 5x, maybe 6x the cost?
This will affect the cost to other mfg's ALREADY making EV's who are still not yet making a profit.
Sounds like the mineral business is the only place where profit can be made except for a few companies like Tesla.
It was no accident. Lolol
#81
-0----0-
iTrader: (4)
They recently discovered a huge lithium in CA. If they're able to mine it efficiently, it'll be a boon for the state
https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...the-salton-sea
https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...the-salton-sea
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AMIRZA786 (03-10-24)
#82
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Yes, but a hybrid is a bit cleaner than an ICE because it uses regenerative braking to capture energy that would otherwise be lost (by friction) to charge a small battery that also helps with propulsion along with the ICE engine. And of course, a BEV is the cleanest of them all..
A PHEV with an EV range of more than 40 miles means that those 6 people who have a PHEV will be significantly better than one guy lugging around a single BEV, so long as they tend to drive less than 40 miles a day.
6 times better outcome in fact.
It's the sweet spot in terms of achieving the goal of cleaner environment, given limited resources.
Last edited by asj2024; 03-10-24 at 10:28 AM.
#83
Lexus Champion
I meant is there any analysis or study that disproves Toyota's 1:16:90 estimates?
And their hybrid bet has already been proven as the correct one recently, with sales growth outpacing BEVs and the company netting record profits.
https://www.businessinsider.com/toyo...us-bz4x-2024-2
Toyota, the originator of the hybrid-car craze in the early 2000s, is poised to reclaim its crown as the king of green cars.
As demand for battery-electric vehicles cools and more shoppers look toward hybrids, the Prius-maker is among the most well-suited to meet the current moment in the transition to electric cars.
After years of being labeled an EV laggard among its peers in the industry, customers don't appear to care that Toyota has so far released only one pretty unpopular electric car in the US (you know, the one with the wheels that literally fell off).
The Japanese automaker actually tops the list of brands most considered by EV shoppers in a recent survey — beating out Ford and Elon Musk's Tesla. It would appear Toyota's more hybrid-heavy approach to electric cars is alluring for the new breed of electric-car shopper, more frugal and practical than the early adopters that came before them.
And their hybrid bet has already been proven as the correct one recently, with sales growth outpacing BEVs and the company netting record profits.
https://www.businessinsider.com/toyo...us-bz4x-2024-2
Toyota, the originator of the hybrid-car craze in the early 2000s, is poised to reclaim its crown as the king of green cars.
As demand for battery-electric vehicles cools and more shoppers look toward hybrids, the Prius-maker is among the most well-suited to meet the current moment in the transition to electric cars.
After years of being labeled an EV laggard among its peers in the industry, customers don't appear to care that Toyota has so far released only one pretty unpopular electric car in the US (you know, the one with the wheels that literally fell off).
The Japanese automaker actually tops the list of brands most considered by EV shoppers in a recent survey — beating out Ford and Elon Musk's Tesla. It would appear Toyota's more hybrid-heavy approach to electric cars is alluring for the new breed of electric-car shopper, more frugal and practical than the early adopters that came before them.
Most people don't know anything or have complete misinformation on BEV's, but as prices continue to come down and people start to drive them, they will sell themselves, which I'm 100 percent confident of. BEV's already make up over 21 percent of sales here, and most of those buyers will never go back. Remember, hybrids pretty much were made popular here, but are now losing ground to BEV's, and will continue to do so. Toyota's hybrid plan is paying off, but it's in the short run. Let's see 5 years from now
#84
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You're posting information from 2022 to 2023, at the height of the BEV hype. The more recent news from end of 2023 to 2024 was where BEV sales growth slowed and HEV sales jumped. Plus, that's one market in USA, which also is the most progressive market BY FAR. I love Cali btw, studied there.
#85
Lexus Champion
Don't mistake slowdowns in the market as falling off a cliff. EV adoption is still on an upswing, it's expected to double this year
Last edited by AMIRZA786; 03-10-24 at 10:42 AM.
#86
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That's from Oct 2023, so you are telling me from Oct BEV's hit a cliff in just a few months? There is still not enough 2024 data, Q1 doesn't end until March 31st. You have to wait for Q4 to get a clear picture.
Don't mistake slowdowns in the market as falling off a cliff. EV adoption is still on an upswing, it's expected to double this year
Don't mistake slowdowns in the market as falling off a cliff. EV adoption is still on an upswing, it's expected to double this year
https://apnews.com/article/hybrids-e...5c244a3ee68abb
Anyways, not sure why we are talking sales. The 1:6:90 talk above is more interesting.
Last edited by asj2024; 03-10-24 at 10:57 AM.
#87
Lexus Champion
BEV sales are growing, but the rate is slowing, which was the point. Meanwhile nationwide HEV sales in 2023 grew even faster by 76%, not even including PHEV sales.
https://apnews.com/article/hybrids-e...5c244a3ee68abb
Anyways, not sure why we are talking sales. The 1:6:90 talk above is more interesting.
https://apnews.com/article/hybrids-e...5c244a3ee68abb
Anyways, not sure why we are talking sales. The 1:6:90 talk above is more interesting.
I'm just not interested in the Toyota excuses using their 1:6:90 math. let's just for argument sake say it correct, I've driven several hybrids, and they are just not for me. The only hybrid I actually like and I can live with is the RX450h, but I still prefer a BEV over it.
So concluding, Toyota can build 1000 hybrids for every BEV, and I would still take the BEV everytime. But that's just me, I don't speak for everyone, people have different needs, so if a Hybrid works, than by all means, buy a hybrid
Last edited by AMIRZA786; 03-10-24 at 11:20 AM.
#88
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AMIRZA786 It's pretty obvious why we are talking about sales numbers
Actually, no. The topic of this thread is how PHEV/HEV can be greener overall than a BEV, and so the 1:6:90 rules DOES apply, but sales figures aren't really tangent to the topic. I mean of course you can say all you want about it if you want, but I'm just pointing out it's not relevant in this case.
I'm just not interested in the Toyota excuses using their 1:6:90 math. let's just for argument sake say it correct, I've driven several hybrids, and they are just not for me. The only hybrid I actually like and I can live with is the RX450h, but I still prefer a BEV over it.
You're talking about personal preferences, which is not really relevant as to how HEV/PHEVs can be greener than BEVs.
So concluding, Toyota can build 1000 hybrids for every BEV, and I would still take the BEV everytime. But that's just me, I don't speak for everyone, people have different needs, so if a Hybrid works, than by all means, buy a hybrid
This is EXACTLY what Toyota believe in. Choices for people, which is why they didn't blindly join the BEV rush
Actually, no. The topic of this thread is how PHEV/HEV can be greener overall than a BEV, and so the 1:6:90 rules DOES apply, but sales figures aren't really tangent to the topic. I mean of course you can say all you want about it if you want, but I'm just pointing out it's not relevant in this case.
I'm just not interested in the Toyota excuses using their 1:6:90 math. let's just for argument sake say it correct, I've driven several hybrids, and they are just not for me. The only hybrid I actually like and I can live with is the RX450h, but I still prefer a BEV over it.
You're talking about personal preferences, which is not really relevant as to how HEV/PHEVs can be greener than BEVs.
So concluding, Toyota can build 1000 hybrids for every BEV, and I would still take the BEV everytime. But that's just me, I don't speak for everyone, people have different needs, so if a Hybrid works, than by all means, buy a hybrid
This is EXACTLY what Toyota believe in. Choices for people, which is why they didn't blindly join the BEV rush
#89
Lexus Champion
AMIRZA786 It's pretty obvious why we are talking about sales numbers
Actually, no. The topic of this thread is how PHEV/HEV can be greener overall than a BEV, and so the 1:6:90 rules DOES apply, but sales figures aren't really tangent to the topic. I mean of course you can say all you want about it if you want, but I'm just pointing out it's not relevant in this case.
I'm just not interested in the Toyota excuses using their 1:6:90 math. let's just for argument sake say it correct, I've driven several hybrids, and they are just not for me. The only hybrid I actually like and I can live with is the RX450h, but I still prefer a BEV over it.
You're talking about personal preferences, which is not really relevant as to how HEV/PHEVs can be greener than BEVs.
So concluding, Toyota can build 1000 hybrids for every BEV, and I would still take the BEV everytime. But that's just me, I don't speak for everyone, people have different needs, so if a Hybrid works, than by all means, buy a hybrid
This is EXACTLY what Toyota believe in. Choices for people, which is why they didn't blindly join the BEV rush
Actually, no. The topic of this thread is how PHEV/HEV can be greener overall than a BEV, and so the 1:6:90 rules DOES apply, but sales figures aren't really tangent to the topic. I mean of course you can say all you want about it if you want, but I'm just pointing out it's not relevant in this case.
I'm just not interested in the Toyota excuses using their 1:6:90 math. let's just for argument sake say it correct, I've driven several hybrids, and they are just not for me. The only hybrid I actually like and I can live with is the RX450h, but I still prefer a BEV over it.
You're talking about personal preferences, which is not really relevant as to how HEV/PHEVs can be greener than BEVs.
So concluding, Toyota can build 1000 hybrids for every BEV, and I would still take the BEV everytime. But that's just me, I don't speak for everyone, people have different needs, so if a Hybrid works, than by all means, buy a hybrid
This is EXACTLY what Toyota believe in. Choices for people, which is why they didn't blindly join the BEV rush
Going off topic a bit, I just want to make it clear I'm not anti-hybrid. People like or love them, Toyota sells millions of them. 99 percent of cars I owned between 1995 and 2021 were either Toyotas or Lexus, so I have an extremely positive experience with this company. Never had a breakdown, biggest issue I ever had was a radiator going bad on a 10 year plus Camry with over 100k on it. I don't even care that Toyota has decided to double down on hybrids and PHEV's. My problem with Toyota is them trying to have their cake and eat it. One minute they are saying they are investing Billions in EV's, than the next they make statements that nobody wants EV's when they see Tesla selling the Model Y and Model 3 like hotcakes. Just build your hybrids and stop trying to convince everyone a car that burns 250 gallons of gas over 15k is green. That's about as genuine as powering Fast chargers with diesel generators and claiming to be green
/Rant over
Last edited by AMIRZA786; 03-10-24 at 04:16 PM.
#90
Lexus Fanatic
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toyota's "electrified" marketing campaign is clever and complete b.s. they have successfully convinced people that driving a hybrid still makes you look like you made the 'sensible' choice, not one of those radical electric only vehicles where you might get stuck in a blizzard or place in the middle of nowhere with a dead car.
unless attitudes change, toyota will continue to be hugely successful. i wouldn't be surprised at some point if a camry, rav4, corolla, etc., ONLY come in hev or phev variants to make toyota look 'totally sensible and responsible' so consumer reports can gush endlessly to their faithful.
unless attitudes change, toyota will continue to be hugely successful. i wouldn't be surprised at some point if a camry, rav4, corolla, etc., ONLY come in hev or phev variants to make toyota look 'totally sensible and responsible' so consumer reports can gush endlessly to their faithful.