asj2024

I meant is there any analysis or study that disproves Toyota's 1:16:90 estimates?

And their hybrid bet has already been proven as the correct one recently, with sales growth outpacing BEVs and the company netting record profits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/toyo...us-bz4x-2024-2

Toyota, the originator of the hybrid-car craze in the early 2000s, is poised to reclaim its crown as the king of green cars.

As demand for battery-electric vehicles cools and more shoppers look toward hybrids, the Prius-maker is among the most well-suited to meet the current moment in the transition to electric cars.

After years of being labeled an EV laggard among its peers in the industry, customers don't appear to care that Toyota has so far released only one pretty unpopular electric car in the US (you know, the one with the wheels that literally fell off).

The Japanese automaker actually tops the list of brands most considered by EV shoppers in a recent survey — beating out Ford and Elon Musk's Tesla. It would appear Toyota's more hybrid-heavy approach to electric cars is alluring for the new breed of electric-car shopper, more frugal and practical than the early adopters that came before them.

asj2024

Here is an interesting video that touches on the limited supplies of the most crucial part of electric vehicles...this is why I think Toyota is thinking more comprehensively than other manufacturers, who are just jumping on the bandwagon.

Margate330

Good video but leaving out all the "carbon" and "green" talk that I have much different opinions about,

I still think nuclear power + hydrogen would be better long term.

No batteries needed.

It would require advancement in fuel cell tech.
TUrning H2 into raw electric, proton pumping electric.

TGPCanada

Yes, but a hybrid is a bit cleaner than an ICE because it uses regenerative braking to capture energy that would otherwise be lost (by friction) to charge a small battery that also helps with propulsion along with the ICE engine. And of course, a BEV is the cleanest of them all.

Now, what Toyota is arguing is this: suppose they have 2000 lbs (for sake of argument) of critical minerals. They can either use all those 2000 lbs to make 1 BEV and sell that, along with 89 ICE cars over the next couple of months. Or, they can use that 2000 lbs of critical minerals to instead build 90 Hybrids, and sell those over the next couple of months. They are saying that if those customers buy the 90 hybrids instead of buying 1 BEV and 89 ICE cars, they will do more for the environment. One way or another, they are going to sell 90 cars over the next couple of months. There simply aren't enough critical minerals to build and sell 90 BEVs over the next couple of months, which of course is the ultimate goal. So they are offering a shorter term alternative.

Margate330

With Lithium at 4x the price due to demand according to the video posted above, imagine the cost if Toyota went to all EV.

Add a whole lot more demand, maybe 5x, maybe 6x the cost?

This will affect the cost to other mfg's ALREADY making EV's who are still not yet making a profit.

Sounds like the mineral business is the only place where profit can be made except for a few companies like Tesla.


​​​​​It was no accident. Lolol

Allen K

iTrader: (4)

They recently discovered a huge lithium in CA. If they're able to mine it efficiently, it'll be a boon for the state

https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...the-salton-sea

asj2024

Or, 6 PHEVs, which imo is a better thing because of one simple fact. Most people drive less than 40 miles per day.

A PHEV with an EV range of more than 40 miles means that those 6 people who have a PHEV will be significantly better than one guy lugging around a single BEV, so long as they tend to drive less than 40 miles a day.

6 times better outcome in fact.

It's the sweet spot in terms of achieving the goal of cleaner environment, given limited resources.

AMIRZA786

I don't want to make this a Tesla vs Toyota thread, So I'll keep this brief. In California, the largest auto market in North America, Hybrids are losing ground



Most people don't know anything or have complete misinformation on BEV's, but as prices continue to come down and people start to drive them, they will sell themselves, which I'm 100 percent confident of. BEV's already make up over 21 percent of sales here, and most of those buyers will never go back. Remember, hybrids pretty much were made popular here, but are now losing ground to BEV's, and will continue to do so. Toyota's hybrid plan is paying off, but it's in the short run. Let's see 5 years from now

asj2024

You're posting information from 2022 to 2023, at the height of the BEV hype. The more recent news from end of 2023 to 2024 was where BEV sales growth slowed and HEV sales jumped. Plus, that's one market in USA, which also is the most progressive market BY FAR. I love Cali btw, studied there.

AMIRZA786

That's from Oct 2023, so you are telling me from Oct BEV's hit a cliff in just a few months? There is still not enough 2024 data, Q1 doesn't end until March 31st. You have to wait for Q4 to get a clear picture.

Don't mistake slowdowns in the market as falling off a cliff. EV adoption is still on an upswing, it's expected to double this year

asj2024

BEV sales are growing, but the rate is slowing, which was the point. Meanwhile nationwide HEV sales in 2023 grew even faster by 76%, not even including PHEV sales.

https://apnews.com/article/hybrids-e...5c244a3ee68abb

Anyways, not sure why we are talking sales. The 1:6:90 talk above is more interesting.

AMIRZA786

It's pretty obvious why we are talking about sales numbers, because it's an important indicator, and for BEV's, at least in California, Europe and China it's all an upward trend, regardless of slowdowns. As far as hybrid sales, most people either know nothing about BEV's or have tons of misinformation which makes them reluctant to buy them. Or there is no adequate charging infrastructure where they live. But as they begin to drive them, BEV's will just sell themselves as the driving experience, being able to charge at home and no maint will make them no brainers. If I do a poll on here with current EV owners who have hybrids and ask them which they prefer, it would be BEV all the way.

I'm just not interested in the Toyota excuses using their 1:6:90 math. let's just for argument sake say it correct, I've driven several hybrids, and they are just not for me. The only hybrid I actually like and I can live with is the RX450h, but I still prefer a BEV over it.

So concluding, Toyota can build 1000 hybrids for every BEV, and I would still take the BEV everytime. But that's just me, I don't speak for everyone, people have different needs, so if a Hybrid works, than by all means, buy a hybrid

asj2024

AMIRZA786 It's pretty obvious why we are talking about sales numbers

Actually, no. The topic of this thread is how PHEV/HEV can be greener overall than a BEV, and so the 1:6:90 rules DOES apply, but sales figures aren't really tangent to the topic. I mean of course you can say all you want about it if you want, but I'm just pointing out it's not relevant in this case.

I'm just not interested in the Toyota excuses using their 1:6:90 math. let's just for argument sake say it correct, I've driven several hybrids, and they are just not for me. The only hybrid I actually like and I can live with is the RX450h, but I still prefer a BEV over it.

You're talking about personal preferences, which is not really relevant as to how HEV/PHEVs can be greener than BEVs.

So concluding, Toyota can build 1000 hybrids for every BEV, and I would still take the BEV everytime. But that's just me, I don't speak for everyone, people have different needs, so if a Hybrid works, than by all means, buy a hybrid

This is EXACTLY what Toyota believe in. Choices for people, which is why they didn't blindly join the BEV rush

AMIRZA786

A lot of other members have already weighed on this....we either find this claim very dubious, or we don't care. So if the whole argument for this thread is that Hybrids are greener and personal preferences are off limits, than we are at a stalemate and there is nothing really more to discuss, at least from me. If it was something I was really concerned about, I would dig in and post counter claims I've seen. BTW, if Toyota had secured batteries like Tesla has done over the last 10 years, they wouldn't need that silly 1:6:90 math

Going off topic a bit, I just want to make it clear I'm not anti-hybrid. People like or love them, Toyota sells millions of them. 99 percent of cars I owned between 1995 and 2021 were either Toyotas or Lexus, so I have an extremely positive experience with this company. Never had a breakdown, biggest issue I ever had was a radiator going bad on a 10 year plus Camry with over 100k on it. I don't even care that Toyota has decided to double down on hybrids and PHEV's. My problem with Toyota is them trying to have their cake and eat it. One minute they are saying they are investing Billions in EV's, than the next they make statements that nobody wants EV's when they see Tesla selling the Model Y and Model 3 like hotcakes. Just build your hybrids and stop trying to convince everyone a car that burns 250 gallons of gas over 15k is green. That's about as genuine as powering Fast chargers with diesel generators and claiming to be green

/Rant over

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

toyota's "electrified" marketing campaign is clever and complete b.s. they have successfully convinced people that driving a hybrid still makes you look like you made the 'sensible' choice, not one of those radical electric only vehicles where you might get stuck in a blizzard or place in the middle of nowhere with a dead car.

unless attitudes change, toyota will continue to be hugely successful. i wouldn't be surprised at some point if a camry, rav4, corolla, etc., ONLY come in hev or phev variants to make toyota look 'totally sensible and responsible' so consumer reports can gush endlessly to their faithful.