BMW says electrification is overhyped
#16
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This just shows you that BMW can't invest all over the place from Turbo petrol everything to quad turbo diesels, from RWD and FWD to XDRIVE and EV/PHEV on top of it all. It's just too much for them. Major automakers maybe have thought EV would be an easy slice of pie, who knows. It just shows how Tesla did awesome branding.
#17
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for all the tesla 'chaos' they've actually been pretty focused...
tiny volume roadster - proof of concept
larger volume 'luxury' (or premium) sedan - work out more kinks
x to have an suv - even though the falcon doors probably wasted them 10s or 100s of millions![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
high volume 3 - reduce cost everywhere possible, designed for high volume manufacturing
oh and have a joint venture to built a gigantic battery factory...
i'm not sure they should have gotten into roofing tiles, power walls, etc. though ... giant distractions from the cars that i doubt has made money.
and who can forget musk is trying to get to mars, sells psuedo flame throwers, bores miles and miles of tunnels under los angeles, and other wild projects![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
but apart from THOSE things
...
... pretty focused.
but tesla has a HUGE problem with repair waits and parts supply...
the 'broken tail light' saga that never ends...
tiny volume roadster - proof of concept
larger volume 'luxury' (or premium) sedan - work out more kinks
x to have an suv - even though the falcon doors probably wasted them 10s or 100s of millions
![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
high volume 3 - reduce cost everywhere possible, designed for high volume manufacturing
oh and have a joint venture to built a gigantic battery factory...
i'm not sure they should have gotten into roofing tiles, power walls, etc. though ... giant distractions from the cars that i doubt has made money.
and who can forget musk is trying to get to mars, sells psuedo flame throwers, bores miles and miles of tunnels under los angeles, and other wild projects
![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
but apart from THOSE things
![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
... pretty focused.
but tesla has a HUGE problem with repair waits and parts supply...
the 'broken tail light' saga that never ends...
#18
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I don't think we can realistically ever achieve the capacity in the world to be producing 100 million huge battery packs a year (global car sales). Imagine adding large trucks to the mix with much bigger batteries.
Aside from that, the idea that these batteries will ever get "cheap" because of volume is ludicrous. Have basic old tech AA and AAA batteries gotten cheap? Nope, they've always been expensive even though billions are made.
We're at a point where people are complaining that ICE cars have gotten way too expensive and we think electric cars are the answer? It's going to take much longer than people have been saying. Same goes for full autonomy.
Aside from that, the idea that these batteries will ever get "cheap" because of volume is ludicrous. Have basic old tech AA and AAA batteries gotten cheap? Nope, they've always been expensive even though billions are made.
We're at a point where people are complaining that ICE cars have gotten way too expensive and we think electric cars are the answer? It's going to take much longer than people have been saying. Same goes for full autonomy.
#19
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Why can we make 100 million engines, transmissions, fuel tanks, emissions systems, catalytic converters etc. but not battery packs?
#20
Lexus Test Driver
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Originally Posted by Lexus2000
Why can we make 100 million engines, transmissions, fuel tanks, emissions systems, catalytic converters etc. but not battery packs?
#21
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The longevity of the battery is greatly underestimated. The vast majority of Tesla batteries can go over 150k miles with 80-90% capacity remaining. Chances are, the TCO for my Tesla will be significantly cheaper than a fully loaded IS350 at $50k at a different performance class.
Replacement battery packs are covered for the first 8 years / 120K miles for my 3s and are guaranteed to maintain a minimum of 70% retention over that time period. Current data on the S's show about a 15% degradation over 150K miles or so
I don't completely buy their claims.
They say that if it sounds too good to be true, then it's not true.
Batteries on cell phone have dropped down to 80% capacity after 2 years.
Thus, I don't believe that Tesla batteries can hold onto 70% capacity at 8 years.
If Tesla batteries have dropped to 70% capacity by 8 years, it's as good as gone anyway.
Only time can tell whether a typical average Tesla battery can hold onto 70% at the 8 year mark, and 70% is as good as gone IMO.
If owners keep hi speed supercharging their battery packs, then the long term longevity and battery capacity will rapidly diminish even further.
If a good number of Tesla batteries fail to hold onto 70% capacity at the 8 year mark, Tesla could go into liquidation under a mountain of warranty claims - caused by optimistic battery longevity claims, to try to sell the Tesla EV in the first place.
Presently, I believe that Tesla = At least Sceptical, if not dodgy...
Why can we make 100 million engines, transmissions, fuel tanks, emissions systems, catalytic converters etc. but not battery packs?
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-27-19 at 10:39 PM.
#22
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I'm not gullible enough.
I don't completely buy their claims.
They say that if it sounds too good to be true, then it's not true.
Batteries on cell phone have dropped down to 80% capacity after 2 years.
Thus, I don't believe that Tesla batteries can hold onto 70% capacity at 8 years.
If Tesla batteries have dropped to 70% capacity by 8 years, it's as good as gone anyway.
I don't completely buy their claims.
They say that if it sounds too good to be true, then it's not true.
Batteries on cell phone have dropped down to 80% capacity after 2 years.
Thus, I don't believe that Tesla batteries can hold onto 70% capacity at 8 years.
If Tesla batteries have dropped to 70% capacity by 8 years, it's as good as gone anyway.
I think they said there's a shortage of rare earth metals?.
#23
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Well it's a good thing people have been tracking the actual data then.
https://steinbuch.wordpress.com/2015...radation-data/
https://steinbuch.wordpress.com/2015...radation-data/
#24
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Wait, is BMW back to selling diesels? I thought they canceled them all in the US which is a pretty strong signal?
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/09/11/...d-states-2019/
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/09/11/...d-states-2019/
#25
Lexus Test Driver
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Originally Posted by Allen K
Well it's a good thing people have been tracking the actual data then.
https://steinbuch.wordpress.com/2015...radation-data/
https://steinbuch.wordpress.com/2015...radation-data/
Check out this education series in Tesla battery tech. Very informative.
#26
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You're comparing steel to lithium, copper, nickel, and other materials that are already at a shortage with the cars making up just 1% of sales so far?
#27
Lexus Fanatic
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I myself was a fan of the current-generation BlueTec diesels. Lots of low-rpm torque, excellent fuel mileage, and tough-as-nails engine blocks, without most of the former diesel problems of decades ago....with only the need for periodic urea-solution fills. But the U.S. market is clearly focusing on electrification.
Last edited by mmarshall; 06-28-19 at 06:43 AM.
#28
EV ftw!!!
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for all the tesla 'chaos' they've actually been pretty focused...
tiny volume roadster - proof of concept
larger volume 'luxury' (or premium) sedan - work out more kinks
x to have an suv - even though the falcon doors probably wasted them 10s or 100s of millions![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
high volume 3 - reduce cost everywhere possible, designed for high volume manufacturing
oh and have a joint venture to built a gigantic battery factory...
i'm not sure they should have gotten into roofing tiles, power walls, etc. though ... giant distractions from the cars that i doubt has made money.
and who can forget musk is trying to get to mars, sells psuedo flame throwers, bores miles and miles of tunnels under los angeles, and other wild projects![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
but apart from THOSE things
...
... pretty focused.
but tesla has a HUGE problem with repair waits and parts supply...
the 'broken tail light' saga that never ends...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfyrl4xls7k
tiny volume roadster - proof of concept
larger volume 'luxury' (or premium) sedan - work out more kinks
x to have an suv - even though the falcon doors probably wasted them 10s or 100s of millions
![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
high volume 3 - reduce cost everywhere possible, designed for high volume manufacturing
oh and have a joint venture to built a gigantic battery factory...
i'm not sure they should have gotten into roofing tiles, power walls, etc. though ... giant distractions from the cars that i doubt has made money.
and who can forget musk is trying to get to mars, sells psuedo flame throwers, bores miles and miles of tunnels under los angeles, and other wild projects
![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
but apart from THOSE things
![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
... pretty focused.
but tesla has a HUGE problem with repair waits and parts supply...
the 'broken tail light' saga that never ends...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfyrl4xls7k
In spite of all the cons, I decided to take the plunge as the pros weigh more in my mind (I'm not here to debate with anyone). This is a personal decision and I am one ecstatic guy! I take delivery of a 2016 Model S 75D tomorrow!!
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#29
Lexus Test Driver
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Originally Posted by Hameed
Very good and concise summary my friend!
In spite of all the cons, I decided to take the plunge as the pros weigh more in my mind (I'm not here to debate with anyone). This is a personal decision and I am one ecstatic guy! I take delivery of a 2016 Model S 75D tomorrow!!
![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
In spite of all the cons, I decided to take the plunge as the pros weigh more in my mind (I'm not here to debate with anyone). This is a personal decision and I am one ecstatic guy! I take delivery of a 2016 Model S 75D tomorrow!!
![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Last edited by bitkahuna; 06-28-19 at 08:08 AM.
#30
EV ftw!!!
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