BMW says electrification is overhyped
06-27-19, 08:28 AM
#1
BMW says electrification is overhyped
Diesel engines have at least 20 more years
At least 80 percent of 2025 sales will have an internal combustion engine
BMW isn't convinced that the end is nigh for the internal combustion engine.
The diesel engine still has oodles of time left in the world, and the shift to electrification is overhyped, says the BMW Group board member for development, Klaus Frohlich. A report from Automotive News quotes Frohlich declaring that the diesel engine still has at least 20 more years, and the gasoline engine, at least 30 years. Also, he toned down the general rhetoric surrounding electric cars and their impending takeover.
"The shift to electrification is overhyped. Battery-electric vehicles cost more in terms of raw materials for batteries. This will continue and could eventually worsen as demand for these raw materials increases," Frohlich says. Needless to say, that kind of talk sounds a bit different than what we hear from Tesla and other electric car backers.
So even though BMW continues to say it's actively developing and pursuing all-electric models, doubt remains. That is clear across the industry, as everyone who produces electric cars struggles to make a profit selling those vehicles. However, Frohlich did detail a few internal combustion engines that don't appear to have a way forward.
The quad-turbo six-cylinder diesel offered in Europe doesn't have a long shelf life, as Froelich declared it too expensive and complicated to build. He says the most turbos we should expect to see on a new BMW diesel engine is three. What a shame, right? We kid, three turbos are plenty. Another diesel engine on the outs is the 1.5-liter three-cylinder only offered in Europe. Frohlich says that particular oil-burner is too expensive to try and get it to comply with emissions standards.
An engine that'll hit home in America is the 6.6-liter twin-turbo V12 found in the top-level 7 Series. Frohlich didn't mince words when it came to that one.
"Each year, we have to invest to update the V12 to new emissions regulations, particularly in China. And when the V-12 accounts for about 5,000 sales a year globally, this includes Rolls-Royce, the cost of these updates is several thousand euros per unit," Frohlich says.
BMW has previously committed to keeping this engine around through 2023, at the very least in the U.S. market. What happens after that is a discussion for another day. Additionally Frohlich says BMW is working on a market case to keep its V8 gasoline engine around. That'll be paired with some form of electrification in the future, though, specifically to deal with countries that have heavy taxes added for high carbon dioxide output.
The diesel engine still has oodles of time left in the world, and the shift to electrification is overhyped, says the BMW Group board member for development, Klaus Frohlich. A report from Automotive News quotes Frohlich declaring that the diesel engine still has at least 20 more years, and the gasoline engine, at least 30 years. Also, he toned down the general rhetoric surrounding electric cars and their impending takeover.
"The shift to electrification is overhyped. Battery-electric vehicles cost more in terms of raw materials for batteries. This will continue and could eventually worsen as demand for these raw materials increases," Frohlich says. Needless to say, that kind of talk sounds a bit different than what we hear from Tesla and other electric car backers.
So even though BMW continues to say it's actively developing and pursuing all-electric models, doubt remains. That is clear across the industry, as everyone who produces electric cars struggles to make a profit selling those vehicles. However, Frohlich did detail a few internal combustion engines that don't appear to have a way forward.
The quad-turbo six-cylinder diesel offered in Europe doesn't have a long shelf life, as Froelich declared it too expensive and complicated to build. He says the most turbos we should expect to see on a new BMW diesel engine is three. What a shame, right? We kid, three turbos are plenty. Another diesel engine on the outs is the 1.5-liter three-cylinder only offered in Europe. Frohlich says that particular oil-burner is too expensive to try and get it to comply with emissions standards.
An engine that'll hit home in America is the 6.6-liter twin-turbo V12 found in the top-level 7 Series. Frohlich didn't mince words when it came to that one.
"Each year, we have to invest to update the V12 to new emissions regulations, particularly in China. And when the V-12 accounts for about 5,000 sales a year globally, this includes Rolls-Royce, the cost of these updates is several thousand euros per unit," Frohlich says.
BMW has previously committed to keeping this engine around through 2023, at the very least in the U.S. market. What happens after that is a discussion for another day. Additionally Frohlich says BMW is working on a market case to keep its V8 gasoline engine around. That'll be paired with some form of electrification in the future, though, specifically to deal with countries that have heavy taxes added for high carbon dioxide output.
06-27-19, 08:58 AM
#2
Lexus Fanatic
BMW isn't convinced that the end is nigh for the internal combustion engine.
The diesel engine still has oodles of time left in the world, and the shift to electrification is overhyped, says the BMW Group board member for development, Klaus Frohlich. A report from Automotive News quotes Frohlich declaring that the diesel engine still has at least 20 more years, and the gasoline engine, at least 30 years. Also, he toned down the general rhetoric surrounding electric cars and their impending takeover.
"The shift to electrification is overhyped. Battery-electric vehicles cost more in terms of raw materials for batteries. This will continue and could eventually worsen as demand for these raw materials increases," Frohlich says. Needless to say, that kind of talk sounds a bit different than what we hear from Tesla and other electric car backers.
The diesel engine still has oodles of time left in the world, and the shift to electrification is overhyped, says the BMW Group board member for development, Klaus Frohlich. A report from Automotive News quotes Frohlich declaring that the diesel engine still has at least 20 more years, and the gasoline engine, at least 30 years. Also, he toned down the general rhetoric surrounding electric cars and their impending takeover.
"The shift to electrification is overhyped. Battery-electric vehicles cost more in terms of raw materials for batteries. This will continue and could eventually worsen as demand for these raw materials increases," Frohlich says. Needless to say, that kind of talk sounds a bit different than what we hear from Tesla and other electric car backers.
I don't always agree with BMW, but they are spot-on with this assessment.
06-27-19, 09:04 AM
#3
Pole Position
Forget cost. For those people that can afford it, where do you charge it outside of your home or on long road trips that doesnt require a minimum of 30 to 60 mins of charging time or have enough charging stations to charge the things.
06-27-19, 09:06 AM
#5
Pole Position
if those "i" and "e" vehicles are anything to go by, BMW isnt exactly lighting the world on fire or even putting any effort into those models.
06-27-19, 09:11 AM
#6
06-27-19, 09:57 AM
#7
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
'building steam' - that was unintentionally funny.
despite all the tesla noise, electric vehicle sales are tiny. large adoption simply won't happen until the vehicles are cheaper, charging is faster, range is longer.
despite all the tesla noise, electric vehicle sales are tiny. large adoption simply won't happen until the vehicles are cheaper, charging is faster, range is longer.
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06-27-19, 10:11 AM
#8
Lexus Fanatic
Sounds right, electrics are over hyped and there is little demand aside from image conscious parts of California mainly for Tesla's. They are way too compromised.
06-27-19, 10:15 AM
#10
Lexus Champion
I'm sure this makes Tesla happy.
06-27-19, 10:54 AM
#11
. I'm in Central NJ and over the past few weeks have been driving down to DE for a work project which is about ~120 miles one way. If I charge to 100%, I'll arrive with about 65-68%. If I'm there for the day, I'll have more than enough to get back home even with Sentry mode on. If it's an multi night trip, a 15-30 minute stop at the local supercharger will get me ~125 additional miles of range. The 3 handles 99.9% of my typical driving and atypical with the trips down to DE. With the GS, Ody, and CX-5 our gas bill was ranged between $300 - $400 per month. Since we replaced the CX-5 and GS, our gas bill has been $40/month. We've got solar on the house too so we're paying nothing to charge the cars too.
V3 supercharger roll out should be pretty good. Model 3 can go from 9% charge to 80% in about 25 minutes or so. The not a refresh, refreshed LR S gets 370 miles per full charge, but older battery chemistry means it doesn't charge as fast. Official refresh of the S should be interesting!
06-27-19, 12:43 PM
#12
Long trip? That's why we kept the Odyssey . I'm in Central NJ and over the past few weeks have been driving down to DE for a work project which is about ~120 miles one way. If I charge to 100%, I'll arrive with about 65-68%. If I'm there for the day, I'll have more than enough to get back home even with Sentry mode on. If it's an multi night trip, a 15-30 minute stop at the local supercharger will get me ~125 additional miles of range.
The 3 handles 99.9% of my typical driving and atypical with the trips down to DE. With the GS, Ody, and CX-5 our gas bill was ranged between $300 - $400 per month. Since we replaced the CX-5 and GS, our gas bill has been $40/month. We've got solar on the house too so we're paying nothing to charge the cars too.
The old fast, cheap, or good matrix V3 supercharger roll out should be pretty good. Model 3 can go from 9% charge to 80% in about 25 minutes or so. The not a refresh, refreshed LR S gets 370 miles per full charge, but older battery chemistry means it doesn't charge as fast. Official refresh of the S should be interesting!
. I'm in Central NJ and over the past few weeks have been driving down to DE for a work project which is about ~120 miles one way. If I charge to 100%, I'll arrive with about 65-68%. If I'm there for the day, I'll have more than enough to get back home even with Sentry mode on. If it's an multi night trip, a 15-30 minute stop at the local supercharger will get me ~125 additional miles of range.The 3 handles 99.9% of my typical driving and atypical with the trips down to DE. With the GS, Ody, and CX-5 our gas bill was ranged between $300 - $400 per month. Since we replaced the CX-5 and GS, our gas bill has been $40/month. We've got solar on the house too so we're paying nothing to charge the cars too.
The old fast, cheap, or good matrix
V3 supercharger roll out should be pretty good. Model 3 can go from 9% charge to 80% in about 25 minutes or so. The not a refresh, refreshed LR S gets 370 miles per full charge, but older battery chemistry means it doesn't charge as fast. Official refresh of the S should be interesting!How many megapixels does your camera have now, and the body no longer costs US$15,000.00 right?
Just remember how much $15,000 could buy back in 1999?
Tesla has no experience in producing the interior of the motor vehicle, nor long term reliability either.
Yes, this is the only way Tesla can survive - if everyone else holds back, or if the big players take too long to move into EV's - thus allowing Tesla to establish themselves, by producing decent interiors, and more reliable products.
However, if the big players move into EV's quickly enough, and Tesla doesn't have time to establish a footing, then Tesla may be bought out by the bigger players.
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-28-19 at 01:01 PM.
06-27-19, 12:50 PM
#13
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by peteharvey
I think BEV's are great like what Allen says, and they are certainly the way to the future just like the original $15,000.00 2.7 Megapixel Nikon D1 digital SLR camera first released in 1999.However, presently at the end of the day, BEV's are still more expensive overall than ICE - once the replacement battery pack is included.
Tesla has no experience in producing the interior of the motor vehicle, nor long term reliability either.Yes, this is the only way Tesla can survive - if everyone else holds back.
However, if the big players move into EV's, then Tesla may be bought out by the bigger players.
.
Tesla has no experience in producing the interior of the motor vehicle, nor long term reliability either.Yes, this is the only way Tesla can survive - if everyone else holds back.
However, if the big players move into EV's, then Tesla may be bought out by the bigger players.
.
06-27-19, 01:00 PM
#15
Lexus Champion
I see it as no different from Toyota's public skepticism regarding EVs from a few years ago. These are all marketing statements to manage customer expectations.