Vladi

The way I see it is this: Toyota went on and made Prius II which was amazing technology at that time and from there on they turned it into marketing and watched money come in from gasoline products. Hybrid advancements from 2004 to 2019 are insignificant. They tweaked the hell out of it but you cant call it HSD 2.0. Lexus is even worse, since debut of 3GS Hybrid only few tweaks have happened in electric parts, most of the changes came from ICE development. So they are either stuck developing it or they just don't care. When it comes to EV I can bet my house they didn't see it coming, they thought they have enough leverage to push fuel cell hydrogen and BMW was a perfect decoy that race will be raced in hydrogen space.

riredale

Toyota engineers analyzed the market in the past and concluded that EVs were/are a fad, while greatly improving gas mileage via Toyota hybrid technology was a reality.

We'll see just how popular EVs are over the next couple of years. My gut feel is that they will all be pretty much a big loss for each company, which will probably keep them in production simply as a status symbol for a while.

(1) Oil is plentiful
(2) Climate Change is losing importance with the masses compared to other issues
(3) People don't want to have to "plug in," don't want to have to wait 30 minutes for refueling, and will have serious range anxiety until such time as charging stations are as plentiful as gas stations.
(4) Straight-line neck-snapping acceleration is immaterial to most drivers.

Toys4RJill

see what coming? I will take your bet. EVs account for 3% of worldwide sales. 60% percent of that is coming from China. Hybrids sell how many worldwide. The future is EV but before you get EV, hybrids will still grow.

peteharvey

I suspect TMC was late on the EV bandwagon because they were counting on hybrids and HFCEV's so much [and neither took off, especially the latter], and at one stage a few years ago, something like 9 different driveline formats were available incluing: gasoline, diesels, small turbos, 48V electric turbos, hybrids, plug-ins, hydrogen HFCEV, lion EV's and solid state SS EV's - TMC didn't know which driveline/s to heavily invest in - but with the Germans and Jaguar pushing EV around 2015, TMC finally made the decision to set up an EV division late 2016 or late 2017 - if I remember correctly.

LeX2K

That's because most people that want an EV buy Tesla.

Toys4RJill

I agree. Those who want EV will buy a Tesla....but, KIA or Hyundai EV is a completely story, the EV story for KIA or Hyundai is not to be compared with Tesla. Toyota would never make money at this point on a high performance EV, they will make money on the upcoming EV CHR for China.

LeX2K

Mindshare is something Toyota risks losing out to Tesla and other startups also to the likes of VW. Not having a high profile BEV will really hurt Toyota going forward IMO.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

“Neither took off” seriously? Toyota sold almost 34000 hybrid vehicles in the u.s. LAST MONTH. The rav4 hybrid is a big reason, it’s a huge success. Instead of weird hybrid vehicles like Prius, the rav4 hybrid is a success because the diff. In price from regular rav4 is tiny, and there’s no compromise really, just much better gas mileage.

LeX2K

The RAV4 hybrid has more power and gets much better gas mileage.

nicedude

Must be two different Lexus sales reports that come out each month...

Sulu

This is a complex question that cannot be answered in a few short, accusing statements. It involves trying to understand the long-term energy philosophy of the Japanese government and how it differs from the energy philosophies of other automakers and other nations.

It is not just Toyota that is behind in fully electric vehicles; all other Japanese automakers -- with the exception of Nissan, which is influenced by its European partner, Renault -- seem to be behind also.

We have been approaching this question from a Western -- North American and Western European -- perspective, rather than a Japanese perspective. I will be the first to admit that the Japanese perspective is not one that we are familiar with, and because the Japanese are a quiet, modest society (and Toyota / Lexus is a VERY Japanese company that is not very good at western-style public relations, and trumpeting its plans and accomplishments), it can be difficult to learn about and understand the Japanese perspective.

The European automakers have, in large part, been forced to adopt electrification. For many years, the Western Europeans have been worried about carbon dioxide emissions; CO2 emissions are directly proportional to how much fuel is burned in an internal combustion engine. As a result, the Europeans came to rely on diesel automobiles, known for their fuel efficiency, to reduce CO2 emissions.

The diesel scandal of a few years ago, however, brought to light just how dirty diesel emissions are, how difficult (and costly) it can be to reduce those emissions, and how some automakers (VW Group automakers and perhaps even Mercedes-Benz) were willing to cheat to bring fuel-efficient diesel automobiles to market. Due to how dirty diesel emissions are, a growing number of major European cities (Rome, Paris, among others) are starting to ban diesels (and even gasoline vehicles) from their city centres.

This is forcing the European automakers to quickly adopt electrification. And to prove that they working on low- and zero-emissions vehicles, the European automakers have been loudly trumpeting their plans and their accomplishments.

There has been no similar pressure to adopt electrification of vehicles in Japan. Rather, the Japanese government has a long-term hydrogen-based energy philosophy. Because of Japan's lack of resources, the government believed that hydrogen as a fuel, which can be extracted from many sources, would be the path they would take. As a result, Japanese automakers have been working with the government on hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles.

But that does not mean that Toyota has not been working on battery-electric vehicles. Toyota was the first modern automaker to bring a hybrid electric vehicle to market, with the 1997 Toyota Prius. Toyota has been working -- quietly as usual -- on batteries since then.

But whereas other automakers quickly adopted some form of lithium-ion battery, Toyota was not satisfied with the earlier battery chemistries (LiIon batteries are known for thermal problems); only recently has Toyota developed a LiIon battery chemistry that it was satisfied with. Toyota is also working on a solid state (no liquid) battery that it hopes to be able to introduce in time for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics; the solid state battery promises higher energy capacity (longer range from a smaller, lighter battery), shorter charging time and longer life than LiIon.

And Toyota does now realize that there is growing demand for battery-electric vehicles. Earlier this summer, it announced that it will be speeding up introduction of electrified vehicles, aiming to get half of its sales from electrified vehicles by 2025, 5 years ahead of its original schedule; to do this, it will be acquiring batteries from Chinese battery makers. It is also working with the smaller Japanese automakers (Daihatsu, Subaru, Mazda, Suzuki) to help them introduce electrified vehicles.

LeX2K

Electrified ≠ BEV Toyota is playing cheap marketing games.

Sulu

Toyota has had 2 generations of RAV4 EV.

The first generation model was sponsored by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), based on the Gen1 RAV4, and produced for lease and later sale from 1997 to 2003 (predating the founding of Tesla). There seemed to be a legal problem with the company that owned the patent on the nickel-metal hydride battery in the latter years, forcing the end of production.

The second generation was a joint venture with Tesla, based on the Gen3 RAV4, using Tesla battery and electric powertrain, and produced from 2012 to 2014, ending with the end of the battery-supply contract in 2014. If I remember correctly, the joint venture was started in repayment for the Fremont, California factory that Toyota sold to Tesla.

peteharvey

Yes, there are - one from carsalesbase, and the other from goodcarbadcar.
Occasionally the figures are different unfortunately.

Seejay

I was reading some articles and watching some videos about the German ICE carmakers. Like the Japanese and American manufacturers, they are in the same boat, essentially. Short story, it is all about money. Tesla enjoys a huge advantage in the BEV market because every dime they have spent since they started has been to advance BEV technology--they have no ICE baggage to haul. It's the reason Amazon and Ford decided to buy into Rivian. It's a clean sheet of paper.
A couple of youtube videos:

and