As a former owner of a classic Mustang (a 1969 fastback model) I feel it looks absolutely hideous. It's basically an Escape EV crossover that was shifted into being badged and restyled as a "Mustang" late into the design process. It's a fine family crossover SUV that happens to be an EV but it's about as far removed from what a Mustang actually is as can be.

The concept Webasto EV conversion to the existing actual Mustang coupe body and the Cobra Jet 1400 which also uses the actual Mustang coupe body are the closest that Ford has so far come to showing us a true EV Mustang and both of those are one-offs.

It's really a shame what they've done to the nameplate by slapping it onto an SUV. Electrification is inevitable for all vehicles so an EV Mustang is to be expected. It just that this thing clearly isn't one despite its badging. Since the V8 and turbo-four engines will go away in favor of electric motors the character, visual shape as a two door coupe and feel of a Mustang as a driver's car become even more important to the model's identify than ever before.

The 12.7 second 1/4 mile time and a blisteringly fast 0-60 time are both really great and all.... but I really don't care. It's an Escape SUV with a Mustang badge on it and some front and rear end restyling. Many EV's are quite fast thanks to their instant torque off the line and linear power-band. No matter how fast this thing is it doesn't change the fact that it's not anything like what a Mustang looks like and feels like as a low to the ground 2+2 coupe.

I get it that Ford wanted their first big effort to make a 100% electric family SUV sell but this was a horrible way to do it by trying to make it into something that it is not.

I realize that adding my disapproval of Ford's decision to market the Mach E as a "Mustang" is just adding to the chorus at this point. Nothing new there. I'm just far more interested in what Ford will show us when they give us an electric version of the *actual* Ford Mustang (the coupe).

 

They pulled out all the marketing stops on this for sure, and I understand wanting to do everything they can to make it succeed. It does leave difficulties down the road. Like you said, now mustang is a gas car and an electric crossover. How do you unify what the name means going forward? Does it become its own sub brand of performance oriented cars, like polestar? Do you pretend it never happened and just leave it at these two vehicles? Is Mach-e also a one off term?

 

I don't see it as leaving difficulties at all. The Mustang coupe of course comes in many variations from pretty dull to wild and crazy so in a way it's already a sub brand. Now they've added a tall fastback 4 door, aka, trendy CUV shape. At some point there may be an electric Mustang coupe but given how hot SUVs are it makes sense for makers to make their first EVs CUVs/SUVs, like VW has done as well with ID.4 and ID.6.

 

what's your source for saying it's based on escape? I don't believe that's true.

 

Bitkahuna, first and foremost... just looking at it there is a lot of resemblance to the Escape and none at all to the Mustang’s current platform (coupe). The front and rear end styling don’t count since you can restyle the front and rear of pretty much any vehicle to make it resemble the front and rear of some other vehicle without actually having that vehicle’s chassis and architecture.

Second:

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/2...nd-147423.html

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And if you think about it this really makes the most sense: Ford wanted to bet big on an electric crossover/SUV first... not on a niche 2+2 sportscar/musclecar because people just keep buying any kind of crossover/SUVs to no end.

So they start work on this pragmatic big bet of theirs using the platform for one of their family crossover vehicles... but at some point realize that it’s not exciting or standout in any way on its own.

So some soul-less executive or several together had the idea to pretend this thing is a “Mustang” so as to generate hype and stir demand among people aren’t looking for a two door coupe driver’s car in the first place.

Painfully and sadly to many of us who really like Mustangs... it worked apparently.

But even further if you begin to study the battery layout and transverse front and rear motor layout as well as pretty much every aspect of the Mach-E’s chassis design it is very clear that it is not in any way related to the actual Mustang (coupe) rear-drive platform at all which has little room in the rear for a transverse electric motor and a driveshaft tunnel sheetmetal that is a key part of the rigid structure of the underside of the chassis.

If you look into the Webasto EV Mustang concept car’s electric drivetrain layout and battery setup or the Cobra Jet 1400’s extreme electric motor and battery setup you will see how a true Mustang-based EV Mustang looks from a technical driveline layout perspective versus the Mach-E’s family crossover platform starting point.

In pure gas and hybrid forms the current Mustang coupe platform will continue a while longer but the next generation Mustang (coupe) is already slated to use a heavily modified version of the next generation Ford Explorer and Lincoln Aviator platforms.

And for both of those SUVs I guarantee you that electrification as advanced hybrids or 100% EVs will be part of their designs from the ground up. That means the coupe Mustang will follow suit with them (as an EV most likely) on that architecture no matter how modified and shortened it will be to accommodate a 2+2 coupe design.

But the Mach-E crossover has nothing in common with the actual Mustang coupe other than some front and rear restyling and some badges.

 

There's no reason for a second that the mach-e chassis should be ANYTHING like an ICE mustang, just like the mb EQS chassis is NOTHING like the s-class even though the EQS is the electric S-Class.

I agree with that.

 

I will disagree with you on the grounds of the model’s physical identity from a visual and aesthetic standpoint.

I am excluding engine sound or how an engine builds its power and requires many gears for torque curve correction because other than perhaps using a 2-speed transmission for high performance applications those things are irrelevant with an EV.

The Mercedes EQS may be a brand new EV platform but it very much resembles a futuristic S-Class(ish) sedan. It did not ditch the sedan identity of its spiritual predecessor but rather re-imagined/evolved it.

The Mach-E isn’t even using a totally new from scratch EV platform and it looks absolutely nothing at all like a Ford Mustang outside or inside.

Since any EV driveline allows for very simplified and compact motor drive unit placement and, with current lithium-ion cell technology, a largely floorpan-spread battery pack for good weight distribution there is nothing stopping a manufacturer from embracing whatever aesthetic shape a particular model may call for.

But that doesn’t automatically mean that a driver-centric low to the ground 2+2 sports car shape has to be abandoned in favor of a completely different middle of the road boring family crossover shape with four doors on the sides.

Different EV drivelines will have so little overall differentiation other than power output and battery pack sizes that the very visual and aesthetic identity of each unique model and how it feels to drive and look at becomes even more important than ever before.

To evolve a non-SUV/crossover vehicle into an electrified or 100% EV offering does not require or warrant that it be turned into a completely unrecognizable SUV/crossover in order to do so.

Reading between the lines I think they’re taking longer to engineer a next generation Mustang coupe as a pure EV while in the meantime they want to milk the current design that has a following due to the V8 engines for as long as they still can sell them.

 

Ford is using a highly reworked crossover chassis but really had to re-architect the whole thing to fit the skateboard style battery layout. It pretty much is completely different and feels completely different from an Escape or Edge.

Their only mistake was naming it a Mustang. I'm sure they could have reworked the body to resemble a classic Mustang shape but then sales would be abysmal because most muscle car guys aren't favorable to EVs in general. Wrong crowd to get the EV business started.

I agree that in an EV world, aesthetics and technology will be the only differentiators of the brands. They will all be fast and should all have similar reliability. Of course quality will be different.

 

Maybe they should have called it e-scape.

 

EZZ, very good points and I agree with you that their first EV should have been an SUV/crossover, much as I don't care for how that style vehicle has taken over the vehicle market to the degree that it has. Naming it a Mustang was a shrewd but ultimately terrible decision in the long run. But they're interested in the impact on buyers that it has right now.

And as reworked as the Escape platform was for this model it should feel completely different with the very low center of gravity and completely different type of power delivery and flat, instantaneous torque curve.

As a classic muscle car person myself I guess I'm the exception to the norm in that I really want the classic style shape and simple driver-focused vehicle experience with coming electrification to every model and nameplate in existence. I'm totally fine with that... BUT... the identity, style and driving experience for a model like the Ford Mustang has to be preserved... just in an evolved sense. If I were to buy a 100% electric Mustang coupe I would still expect a very Mustang-like driver-focused pure driver's car experience in addition to the looks of what a Ford Mustang is.

Sound is the exception here of course. I'm all for slightly noisy helical cut gears or even straight cut gears in the motor drive unit's transmission but at that point I would not want any awful simulated V8 engine noise. EVs aren't truly silent but let an EV Mustang make whatever faint sound it does naturally make and leave it at that.

Already I'm less impressed by insane 0-60 times in modern gas or full electric vehicles and am overwhelmingly more interested in what their style, driving feel and factors of fun and engagement are. This is much harder to achieve in an EV where, as you say, all of them will potentially be fast. This puts even more emphasis on the very look, feel, identity and style of engagement an EV sportscar or EV musclecar can offer.

The 1969 Mustang fastback that I once owned was powered by a 220hp 5.0L (302ci) V8 with a Holley four barrel carburetor and a loud custom exhaust system. It was not fast and I didn't have the money to make it fast while I owned it... but man did that car ever have timeless style and put a grin on my face any time I drove it. More horsepower and faster acceleration is always VERY welcome but if the vehicle isn't special, beautiful (or cool in a niche or weird way) to look at and if it isn't fun to drive then the formula of that vehicle is lacking something for me.

Everything is going electric over the next few years and I welcome the shift. But I still passionately love special cars and muscle cars like the Mustang and feel they need to remain true to their identities even as EVs. And those identities are so much more than the V8 engines they have had traditionally. But the identity can't be completely and utterly thrown out the window as the Mach-E has done.

 

They should have accounted for the outrage from true enthusiasts such as yourself. Could have named it Mach E and not even gone the Mustang route and it may have been fine but it is what it is. The Mach E forums have gone nuts because their motor tech is showing poor performance over 60 mph on the new GT version. Its getting about 12.8s at 100mph on the quarter...basically its almost as fast as Model Y up to 60mph then completely falls on its face for the rest of the quarter mile. Its like minivan speeds above 60mph. Hopefully Ford can fix in a software update.

 

It ain't a Mustang. Pretty weak name.
Next thing you know, their new mini truck (which I think is a great idea) will be called a Maverick.

 

All the fat Mustang horse memes are spot on, lol. But it's also sad to me. Ford went overboard designing the new Bronco and giving it basically every option and chassis style anyone could want. I hope they stick to making an actual Mustang EV (the coupe) for the next generation.

Ford should have taken into account the outrage from fans and enthusiasts of these cars, yes. I *will* own another Mustang in the future. It just depends on whether or not that will be a new one that is EV and done the correct way or if it will be an older one that already is the right shape and style that I'll have to do a custom battery and motor swap to. So far Ford has not inspired confidence.

It's hard for me to care much about how fast *any* crossover/SUV performs because... well... what's there to care about when it's a crossover/SUV? However... from a powertrain engineering standpoint I find the complaints interesting since Ford has already begun to offer an electric crate motor based on what appears to be one of the Mach-E's factory motors. By itself that crate motor is not representative of the Mach-E but as a related component to a vehicle already having customer complaints I pay attention.

The acceleration issues over 60mph could be many things but Ford will definitely try to address it with a software update. Maybe the GT's inverter design is more limited than they expected or maybe the issue is with the battery pack design and programming that erred too much on the conservative side for the sake of safety and reliability.

What is really going to upend the Mustang (the coupe, whenever the next true generation comes around) when it goes EV will be to what degree Ford tries to lock the powertrain away from tuners who will undoubtedly try to unlock the maximum potential of the battery packs, motors and inverters and who will even try to upgrade all of these components on the aftermarket. Ford seems to be very interested in the OTA software update model the same as VW, Mercedes, BMW and other manufacturers and it would not surprise me at all if in the future a warranty-voiding modification for Mustang coupe EVs will be a total ditching of certain key logic board components or entire modules in favor of aftermarket and open-source replacements that allow for more open tuning potential.

It won't be anything like how it is when tuning an internal combustion engine but EV tuning will happen and EV Mustangs (the coupes) will be no exception no matter what Ford does.

I do hope we graduate to better battery cell & pack designs by then that leave lithium-ion behind.

Ford's new not-mini-but-much-more-mini-than-the new-Ranger mini truck is good but I agree that there were so many other better names they could have chosen apart from "Maverick".

 

at some point, sure. but with limited battery supply, it absolutely makes sense to make your first model an SUV. i couldn't care less whether it's called a mustang or not. it's just a name, but obviously you feel very strongly about that.

u.s. mustang sales have been declining in the last few years too. coupes are a harder and harder sell.


source: https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/ford-m...sales-figures/

you'd consider building your own electric mustang from an ICE one?

cars are becoming like iphones. sealed, not very customizable (from drivetrain perspective), and highly reliable. car makers DON'T WANT customers modifying the drivetrain and some states and countries ban this. i believe germany has strict laws banning it!

anyone willing to go to that extent will probably be making a highly unsafe car. i expect and would fully support laws banning such practices.

 

I agree that Ford's first fully electric series production vehicle should probably, unfortunately, be an SUV. I really don't like any of them apart from the Bronco, Wrangler, G-Wagen, older Toyota FJ's, older LR Defenders, etc. but far too many people in the world do and as automakers have lineups full of mostly SUVs that's what most people tend to choose anyway. It's a sad state of affairs but it's today's reality in the new car market.

But none of this matters. The Ford Mustang is a low to the ground sports coupe with a chassis capable of high performance use (even if you buy the base spec model that needs better hardware installed to do more than it can as is). Eroding what its identity actually is by lending its name to a totally unrelated family SUV is a joke.

It has nothing to do with coming electrification and everything to do with a model's unique identity and persona. Again, excepting a V8 engine in the case of the Mustang because its driveline will change entirely to keep up with the times.

Also, there are plenty of people who would like to buy an aspirational car like the Ford Mustang coupe. Not having much disposable income in a difficult job market kind of makes it difficult to purchase something you'd really like to own when your finances and lifestyle are tight enough as it is just keeping one practical car in the family.

There will always be buyers for the coupe. It's just not the most popular car around by sales numbers alone as it once was.


Of course. EV swaps into internal combustion vehicles have been done for years and there are great numbers of them done to a very high standard with high quality repurposed OEM and aftermarket components.

Take a look in the SC300/400 sub-forum at my build thread titled "Kahn's USDM 2JZ-GTE Swap (The Not Easy Way)" where I have posted great detail nearly every step I have taken to build my 1993 Lexus SC300's new factory-spec turbo engine engine to original factory specifications from a bare block and where I detail numerous extensive electrical wiring pinouts for not just the main engine control wiring but also for numerous redundant reliability and support systems. All of this was done rather unconventionally to finish the vehicle with much more power than stock while still having a very safe and reliable car that can pass California's very strict emissions standards for the engine's model year and pass California's strict BAR certification process for engine swaps.

All of the same attention to detail will be applied to whatever EV conversion I undertake.

I have been studying many custom EV conversion builds for years to educate myself and learn how to do one myself. There is always new information coming out on what others have learned and developed, always new OEM and aftermarket components that have become the new go-to driveline, battery or inverter component to use as starting points and electric vehicle technology itself is rapidly improving year by year.

I have had it in mind to do this type of conversion to my SC300 as well.

It's very expensive and it requires a lot of self-education and keeping up to date on what will be required. The best route overall is to preserve the original chassis as much as possible. For ICE rear-drive vehicles this presents limitations for both the battery pack design and placement as well as limited options (at current time) for electric motors with sufficient continuous and peak horsepower and torque ratings that can be mounted longitudinally. A manual transmission that is strong and high torque capable can be re-used or a 1.9:1 reduction drive gearbox can replace it.

The reason to EV convert any older internal combustion car is of course because you really like the car... and wish to keep driving it. Sometimes the original engine might not have been very good compared to the chassis and visual design (example: the DMC-12 DeLorean looks gorgeous but an EV conversion to one of those would be a huge improvement).


But cars are NOT phones at the end of the day. They're cars. I'm fine with my iPhone being a very limited and narrow scope appliance that I feel no need to jailbreak as hobbyists did with the original models to get new features that Apple wouldn't offer... but that's because it's an appliance cellphone. It's not emotional. I don't care about it other than that it works and runs all the functions I do want and none that I don't. It is nothing more than a pocket communication device.

A vehicle on the other hand can in special cases give a much more emotional experience for the owner either just sitting still due to its looks and also when driving it. Sure, going from some special and fun design internal combustion engine to an electric motor and battery removes a lot of the drama and theatrics but that only affects the means of propulsion, not so much the potential experience behind the wheel of a vehicle designed to be enjoyed as a driver.

The reliability of modern vehicles, with only some exceptions, is much better than it ever used to be, true. However some people will always modify or customize their vehicles. In the United States emissions has been the biggest reason for laws that increasingly prohibit modification (hence one reason among several as to why I built my SC300 the way I did with a stock and unmodified engine even though that engine design was never offered in my car to begin with). In Germany you actually CAN modify a vehicle but they have very strict certification processes that have to be passed in order for that modified vehicle to remain road legal.

This is an oversimplification but for instance in Germany you must prove that if you have added more power to the vehicle you also have to have added a measurable amount of added stopping power and handling in order to compensate for that power change.

Currently Germany also appears to have some of the most strict laws in the entire world restricting anyone who would like to do even a very mild EV conversion with an old classic model... which is very unfortunate. Hopefully that will change in order to preserve classic models for the future there.

In Finland (I think it is Finland) it is even more strict in that you can only add up to a certain percentage more power than what the vehicle came with originally. It is unclear to me at this time if they hold that to the highest output engine that *model series* ever came with in that country or if they hold it to just what your poor-spec trim level came with originally. Over there if you are unlucky enough to love a great looking car that had an absolutely terrible and slow engine to begin with it may prove a challenge to improve the vehicle's on-road capability to a modern standard as well as restore it.

Thankfully we do not have those issues in the United States. By the time EV conversions to classics grow out of the relatively limited niche they are currently in we should have already seen a huge improvement in the quality of hardware, battery technology (moving beyond lithium-ion to better and safer chemistries will be a very good thing) and the ease of conversion should be much better.

...

Just because someone swaps in a different engine into a car or converts a car to full battery electric does not mean that vehicle is a rolling deathtrap. Too many sensationalized junkyard car building shows with idiots doing really stupid things have given people a very negative impression of car modification and car customization in general.

Already there are some specialty shops that exclusively do EV conversions to very high standards. Look up the companies EV West and Electric-GT for instance.

Further, in Germany alone there are several tuning companies that modify vehicles there. They do have to put each customer vehicle through strict official certification processes but the practice is allowed within the government guidelines.


I don't mean to offend you but the above is a very naive and very uninformed position rooted in blind fear with seemingly no education on the subject. Vehicle modification and customization may not be your thing and that's fine but just because you don't understand it doesn't mean that other people don't know what they are doing.

Have you ever modified a car, had to study original manufacturer electrical wiring diagrams, had to identify multiple model cross-referenced parts in manufacturer parts databases, had to design and build brackets or mounts (using some basic math in some cases) that allow certain new components to be mounted, had to learn how a component or assembly works in order to dismantle it and then reassemble it with new wear components... or overall had the desire to give your favorite car features and capabilities that were only offered on an extremely rare and expensive top range model or variant of the same exact car only sold in a different market with all of the features you actually wanted but were not allowed to buy on that model even when the vehicle was brand new?

From the impression you have given I have to assume that you have not.

This gets very dicey when the features you're locked out from actually exist in the vehicle you have bought (new or used) but are locked out by a software paywall. Or worse, blocked at the software level from being able to add to your vehicle because it is "too out of date and no longer unsupported". That last one applies the most to people buying a vehicle as the second or third owner or to original owners who prefer to keep their vehicles for a very long time. Once you have bought and legally own a vehicle there are eventually many varied reasons people may have to modify that vehicle.

I completely disagree with and oppose the position of banning all vehicle driveline modification and conversion. I do understand and respect not violating emissions laws concerning internal combustion engines since they affect the environment each time they are used. However since electric vehicles do not pollute the environment other than what was done during their original manufacture there is no such environmental concern when modifying their powertrains.

The power grid through which they recharge and how that electricity is generated is another animal entirely unrelated to any electric vehicle.

My own modified 29 year old car is more dialed in as reliable and safe than some truly sketchy and poorly maintained cars on the road that are a couple of decades newer and which the owners don't bother to keep up with from clearly visible body damage (with likely bent suspension issues), bald tires, worn out brakes or even failed electrical components that are part of the original safety systems. Of the states that do have mandatory safety inspections preventing that level of irresponsibility... good. But most states let all manner or dangerous ill-maintained junk-buckets amble down the road alongside other drivers with impunity.

A lot goes into properly setting up any kind of custom modified car and this is *especially* the case for any car that is EV converted. A lot has to be changed and upgraded and it is more often the case that these projects when finished are far safer, more reliable and more capable vehicles than the condition they were previously in.

I'll happily welcome a classic vehicle that has a DC fast charge socket under its old gas filler cap given just how much work, time, research and effort is required on the part of the hobbyist to make their older vehicle safe, reliable and road worthy.

...

Furthermore there is a movement called Right To Repair which, while not necessarily focusing on EV conversions to older vehicles is intended to combat exactly the kind of draconian manufacturer lockdown that you describe for the products you buy from them and then *legally own* once you've paid for their product.

People will modify vehicles into the future one way or another. It will just change considerably in how it is done and why as we move away from internal combustion engines.

....

Also, if you're concerned that an ICE Mustang converted to EV will be highly dangerous and unsafe you might want to complain to Ford Motor Company first since they worked with the company Webasto on a proof of concept fully electric model of the *actual* coupe Mustang ICE chassis: