Tesla appears to be turning back to radar for its vehicles
#1
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It began removing radar from its vehicles last May
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Tesla plans to add a new radar product to its vehicles in mid-January, according to documents posted with the Federal Communications Commission.
The disclosure, which was first reported by Electrek, comes as the company faces scrutiny over the safety and capabilities of its standard advanced driver assistance system known as Autopilot and the $15,000 optional upgraded product branded as "Full Self-Driving." Tesla FSD beta software offers some automated driving features but is not a self-driving system.
The luxury EV-maker has long claimed it could reach full autonomy through a "vision only" approach that shuns other sensors like lidar and radar in favor of cameras and a deep neural network that quickly processes a vehicle's surroundings and responds in real time. Tesla CEO Elon Musk previously promised to "solve" full self-driving by the end of this year (he's also promised Tesla would get there every year for roughly nine years now). He has recently admitted the problem will take longer to solve.
And perhaps, as every other autonomous vehicle technologist says, it's not actually achievable yet through cameras alone.
The company began removing radar from its vehicles last May. In October, Tesla removed its 12 ultrasonic sensors from Model 3 and Model Y vehicles built for North America, Europe, the Middle East and Taiwan. Ultrasonic sensors measure distance via ultrasonic waves and are used as proximity sensors to support anti-collision safety systems, particularly in parking use cases.
Now it appears radar is back. It's not yet clear which models will get the new radar. The type of radar Tesla intends to market next year is of a frequency that's allocated by the FCC for ADAS use cases, according to Ram Machness, chief business officer at Arbe Robotics, which produces ultra-high-resolution 4D imaging radar.
Tesla had originally filed with the FCC to use the new radar — which is described in filings as "76-77 GHz Automotive Radar" — in its vehicles back in June.
"From the frequency of operation (76-77GHz) as well as the mechanical design of the sensor from Tesla’s FCC filing, it appears that this radar would be utilized in ADAS applications," Steven Hong, VP and general manager of radar technology at semiconductor company Ambarella, told TechCrunch.
He noted that while the performance of this 'edge' radar sensor will be limited, it's a positive development that Tesla is looking to add radar to its perception stack for safety-critical, robust performance.
Earlier this year, the FCC had granted a confidential treatment to Tesla in order to keep the details of the new radar under wraps. Late last month, Tesla applied to extend that confidentiality treatment another 60 days from its date of expiration, which is December 7.
The authorization letter to the FCC reads: "... this device will not be marketed until Mid-January 2023. To avoid any unnecessary disclosure and competitive harm before our product launching, we would like to request above exhibits to be held for another 60 days until 2023-02-07."
The FCC filings show that the regulator has granted Tesla's request for extended confidentiality.
The disclosure, which was first reported by Electrek, comes as the company faces scrutiny over the safety and capabilities of its standard advanced driver assistance system known as Autopilot and the $15,000 optional upgraded product branded as "Full Self-Driving." Tesla FSD beta software offers some automated driving features but is not a self-driving system.
The luxury EV-maker has long claimed it could reach full autonomy through a "vision only" approach that shuns other sensors like lidar and radar in favor of cameras and a deep neural network that quickly processes a vehicle's surroundings and responds in real time. Tesla CEO Elon Musk previously promised to "solve" full self-driving by the end of this year (he's also promised Tesla would get there every year for roughly nine years now). He has recently admitted the problem will take longer to solve.
And perhaps, as every other autonomous vehicle technologist says, it's not actually achievable yet through cameras alone.
The company began removing radar from its vehicles last May. In October, Tesla removed its 12 ultrasonic sensors from Model 3 and Model Y vehicles built for North America, Europe, the Middle East and Taiwan. Ultrasonic sensors measure distance via ultrasonic waves and are used as proximity sensors to support anti-collision safety systems, particularly in parking use cases.
Now it appears radar is back. It's not yet clear which models will get the new radar. The type of radar Tesla intends to market next year is of a frequency that's allocated by the FCC for ADAS use cases, according to Ram Machness, chief business officer at Arbe Robotics, which produces ultra-high-resolution 4D imaging radar.
Tesla had originally filed with the FCC to use the new radar — which is described in filings as "76-77 GHz Automotive Radar" — in its vehicles back in June.
"From the frequency of operation (76-77GHz) as well as the mechanical design of the sensor from Tesla’s FCC filing, it appears that this radar would be utilized in ADAS applications," Steven Hong, VP and general manager of radar technology at semiconductor company Ambarella, told TechCrunch.
He noted that while the performance of this 'edge' radar sensor will be limited, it's a positive development that Tesla is looking to add radar to its perception stack for safety-critical, robust performance.
Earlier this year, the FCC had granted a confidential treatment to Tesla in order to keep the details of the new radar under wraps. Late last month, Tesla applied to extend that confidentiality treatment another 60 days from its date of expiration, which is December 7.
The authorization letter to the FCC reads: "... this device will not be marketed until Mid-January 2023. To avoid any unnecessary disclosure and competitive harm before our product launching, we would like to request above exhibits to be held for another 60 days until 2023-02-07."
The FCC filings show that the regulator has granted Tesla's request for extended confidentiality.
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The authorization letter to the FCC reads: "... this device will not be marketed until Mid-January 2023. To avoid any unnecessary disclosure and competitive harm before our product launching, we would like to request above exhibits to be held for another 60 days until 2023-02-07."
as for going back to radar... well duh, cameras suck at night for one thing, can't see through fog, etc.
#3
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I believe they did a lot of testing, and they didn't need radar. I believe it's more a Federal mandate because of FSD. I'll see if I can dig up where I read that to confirm. But you are correct, I would be scared of a camera getting covered in gook or broken, or not seeing properly at night because of glare or fogging
Last edited by AMIRZA786; 12-08-22 at 09:02 AM.
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In heavy rain and fog maybe radar would help but is prone to phantom signals.
#5
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How many of the 8 cameras need to be covered up before FSD won't be able to see? Here is FSD being driven in Calgary the system makes quite a few mistakes but in general seeing the road isn't an issue. Radar would not help at all to see lane lines. From what I've seen FSD is 95% software challenged 5% vision challenged.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ-WDkxibPo
In heavy rain and fog maybe radar would help but is prone to phantom signals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ-WDkxibPo
In heavy rain and fog maybe radar would help but is prone to phantom signals.
Last edited by AMIRZA786; 12-08-22 at 09:55 AM.
#6
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You don't have to convince me. I drove my brother in laws Model 3 at night, and it saw everything around me, including a pedestrian crossing all the way on the left side, and a bicyclist. I believe it's NTSB mandating radar for FSD. Not 100 percent sure, but I think that's what it is
Tesla will probably steal this idea if they haven't thought of it, I want to see a radar unit output the same signal as a vision camera. That way FSD treats it just like any other camera but the radar version is seeing past things like rain and fog. Maybe this is not technically possible but I envision the radar signal being processed to an output just like a photon sensor camera. This solves the problem of phantom objects because the radar, let's now call it vadar, camera is mixed in with the rest of the cameras. FSD using the total image construct can easily determined if the vadar unit is being stupid because the rest of the cameras will be correct. Vision is never wrong unless it is obscured/blocked.
#7
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Very possible. Let's see what kind of radar unit Tesla has come up with they try very hard not to put parts in cars that don't do anything.
Tesla will probably steal this idea if they haven't thought of it, I want to see a radar unit output the same signal as a vision camera. That way FSD treats it just like any other camera but the radar version is seeing past things like rain and fog. Maybe this is not technically possible but I envision the radar signal being processed to an output just like a photon sensor camera. This solves the problem of phantom objects because the radar, let's now call it vadar, camera is mixed in with the rest of the cameras. FSD using the total image construct can easily determined if the vadar unit is being stupid because the rest of the cameras will be correct. Vision is never wrong unless it is obscured/blocked.
Tesla will probably steal this idea if they haven't thought of it, I want to see a radar unit output the same signal as a vision camera. That way FSD treats it just like any other camera but the radar version is seeing past things like rain and fog. Maybe this is not technically possible but I envision the radar signal being processed to an output just like a photon sensor camera. This solves the problem of phantom objects because the radar, let's now call it vadar, camera is mixed in with the rest of the cameras. FSD using the total image construct can easily determined if the vadar unit is being stupid because the rest of the cameras will be correct. Vision is never wrong unless it is obscured/blocked.
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#8
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You're talking way, way above my head LOL. That said, they may require the radar for cars that have FSD. My brother in law actually got an email from Tesla (before his car was delivered) that they moved to all optical and he had to re-approve the order. He opted not to get FSD, even though they offered it to him for $6K instead of $15K. Since that's the case, he may not have to worry about not having radar
AI driving is insanely difficult Argo (VW sponsored) recently shut down Lucid has a zillion sensors but no software to go with it.
#9
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He was considering it, but the Tesla rep said that eventually they will add it as a subscription. TBH, I most likely will opt not to get it when I eventually get my Model 3
#10
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You can buy it at any time, or opt to pay as you go. Owning the software may go away though not sure.
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#12
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I listen to Rob Mower from Tesla Daily, and he mentioned in one of his videos that if you buy the software you own it, and if it ever leaves beta and Tesla decides to charge more for it, you will own it as an early Beta tester. I don't know to what extent that is, can you transfer it to another Tesla later on? Dunno
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Well, I'm glad they're adding it back as I don't see how the car, in even the lightest mode of autonomous driving, can operate safely with just cameras.
Even with the radar sensors in my 3, the car sometimes struggles in snowy weather, rain, fog, and even bright sun shining in any one of the cameras. The car will not engage (or suddenly disengage) in just the most basic autopilot in any one of these scenarios. Still a long way to go for true FSD.
Even with the radar sensors in my 3, the car sometimes struggles in snowy weather, rain, fog, and even bright sun shining in any one of the cameras. The car will not engage (or suddenly disengage) in just the most basic autopilot in any one of these scenarios. Still a long way to go for true FSD.
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