shaodome

iTrader: (3)

The pump for the dynojet wideband wasn't plugged in. So it was relying on exhaust velocity to push air through that tiny rubber hose up to the sensor, that is why it was showing lean.

SC300TURBO

iTrader: (2)

ok 3rd times the charm....
WHAT GAS AND WHAT BOOST?

drewgo

^^pump 24psi

shaodome

iTrader: (3)

yah...I'm not going to run 24psi on pump though...in my opinion that is too far for pump gas.

DLI came today, so I hope to install that tonight and go back to the rollers this week.

//LRD

Jordan I run on 24 lb on pump should I be concerned.??

shaodome

iTrader: (3)

I would be....granted a bigger turbo and especially an larger turbine wheel will yield more power on pump gas at the expense of less tq and lag. I would think you are really pushing it for pump gas...same goes for Ed actually. Ed, I would like to know what Alpha thinks of you running 23psi on 93 Octane? I don't know him, but he seems to very much know his way around the 2J (much more than I right now)...how much timing are you running at full boost?

Jon, just pull one of your spark plugs and take a look at it, there are very much tell tale signs of detonation if you know what to look for.

I know about tuning rich in case of a bad tank of gas, but that bad tank could mean lower OCTANE which is VERY VERY dangerous. The stock ECU seems to do a good job of listening to the factory knock sensors, but I don't like to ride that razor's edge if not need be.

lexforlife

iTrader: (7)

jordan

this is where a full standalone really shines

being able to control timing precisely ( not just intercepting signals) being able to set your own knock threshold and how to respond and when to respond to it is critical.. ( stock ecu has a very narrow window for knock resis)

being able to control inj pulse , phase angles and duty cyles again critical


with the standalone 24 to 25 psi is no issue on pump if timing is pulled right at peak trq not hp and gradually added back in and with fuel being injected at the right times..

i have been running 23.5 since last year oct and yes alpha only tunes to where its deemed safe same goes for chrispeed he tuned clives to 25psi and clive is on full haltech


i would not run more then say 20psi on stock ecu piggying with emange or safc combo because of no real knock control and precise timing control

shaodome

iTrader: (3)

Years ago I would agree with this...and this holds true for the Emanage Blue, MAPECU, and SAFC....the EMU on the other hand has continued to impress me. Control over injector duty cycle and/or pulse width doesn't mean anything in this conversation, even though the EMU is doing that on my car. It is also controlling timing directly as well, not fooling the ECU by manipulating the map sensor signal like the other choices out there do.

Granted...the EMU CAN behave like a computer version of an SAFC if setup that way, but for the JDM 2JZ ECU, its a great bang for buck setup that I would be suprised to see if you where able to get any significant more power out of a setup when compared to going stand alone.

The knock threshold stuff on a lot of motors is useless (granted I cannot speak for the 2j here yet) but usually at higher RPM valve train noise can ring the factory sensor causing phantom knock. I prefer to tune with det cans and actually LISTEN for the knock with human ears. What I want to know, is how much timing you guys are running at 23+psi and what the factory ECU calls for. It seems the Aristo ECU is LESS aggressive than the supra ECU, so that might be a little bit of saving grace here. I know jon's car was on STOCK timing

lexforlife

iTrader: (7)

jordan with all due respect

pulsewidth , duty cyle and phase angle control do have alot to do with how fuel is delivered to a engine and how it relates to setting up timing


no matter what you say edamage is still a piggyback , nuff said .. it can do more then a regular piggyback can do but the stock ecu is still in the equation .. its its doing everything , then why is stock ecu still in place controlling overall st/lt fuel trims

why not simplfy the process , go full standalone and eliminate the common everyday issues with running forced induction in high boost levels

knock control on aem is user defined/setup in other words we design our own thresholds for knock and how to deal with it , ie pulling of timing , addition of fuel etc etc

i never liked relying on stock ecu for registering knock and adjusting soley

when alpha comes back down to retune me which will be done at stp , come on by and watch what we access and how it relates to safely tuning 23psi on pump safely being the operative word here

remember on ems coolant temp sensor, knock sensor, iat, and map is all my car runs on , i dont even use o2feedback at all ( i have no 02 sensors) just wb that can be used for feedback but alpha tuned so precisly o2 fb wasnt even necessary

shaodome

iTrader: (3)

Let me clarify, when I said "control over duty cycle..." I was referring to knock limit and ignition timing...so in that context it really doesn't matter as long as the fuel is in the right place in the right amount, regardless of what transistor is telling it how to do that....just trying to keep it simple for this thread.

The Emanage is a piggy back, but not in historical sense of piggy backs from the VPC, SAFC, MAPEcu type setups...not going to bore with specifics there....knock can be monitored in the EMU, but I don't think it will act on it because the stock ECU acts on it. That is a +1 for the EMS, but it is not a core function required for operation. With as much experience as Alpha seems to have (I've never talked to him yet, just going by praise he has received from happy customers), I highly doubt the knock sensor is even ringing as you say he tuned your car with a safety margin. Bad tank of gas (low octane) then yah, the knock sensor will save your ***....just like on a stock ECU to a point.

Lack of o2 feedback is a choice of the user....I've tuned a lot of cars that don't use it, but I always suggest it. Not for power, but for MPG. There is always variations in air density which push fuel trims one way or the other...hell...even in the mfg process, it can cause variance. I've seen it on V6 engines where one head will flow a tiny bit different as readable by an o2 sensor in each head.

You are running a speed/density based system, as am I...so o course you utilize IAT, Clt, map (you forgot TPS), etc. It's all required to make the math equation for the amount of fuel to inject work. Eventually I will go stand alone via Megasquirt, but that is not because I don't like the results from the EMU...its because I need a test vehicle before putting MS systems into production for the 2JZ crowd....what I want to see is both MS and AEM EMS side by side...with a properly constructed unit, the results will probably suprise you

I am VERY MUCH looking forward to meeting him and seeing your car on the dyno so we can see what it does WITHOUT A BOOST LEAK haha...on that note, did you take it to get the hydrocarbons tested?

I think you and I could go round and round over this issue, which I think would be much better served at the dyno or over some curried goat!

lexforlife

iTrader: (7)

sorry forgot about tps

02fb it not really for mpg , in the ems world its more of a crutch to get a/f for idle and cruise close to stoich as opposed to working the system properly

i have o2fb turned off and get 24-28mpg cruising at 80-90mpg

alphas tune is awesome and by no means do i want to imply i know in depth about this subject but i do watch , learn and ask tons of questions during the process

and the knock threshold is exactly that , he defines what it hears and what to do with it so if a bad tank of gas timing is altertered immed and fuel correction added , i watched him build the knock map and asked tons of questions about his method and why also with the ems monitering coolant temp he has a threshold setup if it gets to hot what to do with it , he defines at what pressure level to cut ign and/or cut fuel ( he calls it brick wall effect)

so on and so forth

i wont go as far and say just because you have a ems over any piggyback setup that will automatically make more power , but in the hands of a COMPETENT tuner it will make more efficient and safe consistent power

my car drives the same / starts the same day after day after day

and no did not check hydrcarbons as yet but i did realize my heater core was clogged and overflow res was filled twice above level since relieving the heater cotre and fill bottle to correct level my coolant level in rad has not changed nor dumped any coolant so we will see

shaodome

iTrader: (3)

I highly disagree about the o2 feedback it is NOT a crutch to a good tune. If it was OEMs wouldn't go through the expense of putting widebands in most newer cars with ECUs that can modify fuel trims....if there wasn't a plus to it, they would continue to use narrow band sensors to light off the cat(s) in the exhaust...

That white POS probe you see at the dyno from time to time has now been 3 years without o2 feedback and has made over 1000 mile trips averaging about 27mpg on the highway (very low vehicle weight now) and making more than 200hp over the stock setup. Could there be a little more edged out with an o2 sensor....possibly.

The "brick wall effect" is a safety valve setup by the tuner and any half decent EMS should be able to do just that. I totally agree with having those safeguards in place and frankly that is one thing that annoys me with the EMU...there is no boost cut. For example, say a vac line popped off the wastegate and you run up to 30+psi....we all know how fast the boost can shoot up...you are SOL! What I'm doing with my EMU is just DUMPING fuel and pulling hella timing above my maximum boost I run right now. That would give me a clear feedback that something was wrong. Not quite the brick wall of fuel cut, but it gets the point across For race gas, I can just flip a switch and go to a different map.

That is true for most anything...the more competent the operator, the better the end result...garbage in garage out (and potentially chunks of aluminum), no? Remember, in many cases I would agree with you, but the EMU is a lot different than the rest of the piggy backs I've dealt with. Don't forget, I have a very strong customer base and following regarding selling/intalling/tuning Megasquirt systems as a full standalone, so I'm not arbitrarily supporting the EMU because I own one right now.

FWIW, this is a very good debate and I would love to see Alpha and Crispeed chime in with some of their thoughts....I don't have a ton of experience with the 2JZGTE yet and I'm always willing to listen to experience and reason, whether or not I agree with it personally...

lexforlife

iTrader: (7)

o2fb is a crutch period .. if proper tuning values are done 02fb is not neccesary , oem uses it because of the multitudes of sensors the car runs off , so it needs to consistently keep adjusting short term trims and long term trims to ensure stoich is maintained for emissions mainly

alpha has tuned my aem to such precision that cold start is better the oem , once iat has reached set parameters it starts to extract fuel for idle and cruise (dre drove with me the other day and can attest to that) also once coolant temp has reached above 140deg

my idle a/f stay in the mid 14's to low 15's everyday and cruise is just the same

shaodome

iTrader: (3)

I guess you and I will agree to disagree on the o2 sensor then. Some food for thought...Honda do not use a MAF. They are speed density just like you and I and thus use the EXACT SAME sensor inputs and some of those cars came with the spendy NTK N1H1 wideband sensor, not a narrow band.

Tuned better than OEM? Or just as good as OEM :-) As far as the IAT and CLT trims....that is part of any normal tune. It helps deal with heat soak and warmup enrichments. Guess what...EMU can do that too, HA! I just don't know what the factory ECU will do regarding its fuel trims yet....just not enough time yet to fool with the car.

drewgo

Hey Hey HEY! Leave Dre out of this one!.....


You guys keep on keepin on... I am learning here. This is good stuff believe it or not. By standers reap alot of knowledge watching great debates, I am actually understanding Jordan's point and Ed's point. So x2