View Poll Results: Can a Moderately Modded GS4 Take a Stock BMW M3 - 0-60, and Quarter mile?
Yes - Modded GS4 Would Take Stock M3
36
30.25%
Equal - Both cars equal
7
5.88%
No - Stock M3 would take Modded GS by small margin
25
21.01%
NO - Stock M3 would Smoke us!
51
42.86%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll
POLL: Modded GS4 vs. M3
#91
exclusive matchup
iTrader: (4)
Originally Posted by BadAssGS3T
I have read the whole thread and everyone is making it sound as if the M3 was such a great sports car. Some even call it a beast. I think NOT. Personally, I have no respect for the E46 M3. I think it's overpriced and SLOW. Not to mention that modifications to make that car go fast are EXTREMELY limited and RIDICULOUSLY expensive. The reason is that the factory already tuned the heck out of that car and quite frankly, there aren't many improvements you can make over stock without spending a little fortune. The main reason is that stock compression is so high that you can practically forget about forced induction or nitrous without doing some serious work to your motor unless of course you are trying to blow it up. Earlier, a couple of people said that if you want a fast car that you should buy a fast car. But where would the fun be in that? I say: If you want a fast car, buy one with a lot of potential.
When I first swapped in the vvt-i 2JZ GTE in my GS, I ran one of my friends who owns a 2003 E46 M3. He had at least 4 to 5 car lenghts on me. At that time, I pretty much had everything stock except for 3" downpipe, exhaust and intercooler which means I was running about 11 lbs of boost AND I was hitting fuel cut since I did not have a boost cut controller on the car. Furthermore, my speed was limited to 112MPH. After installing the boost cut controller, swapping the JDM turbos for US spec turbos, and raising the boost to about 18lbs, we tried it again. It was not even close. By the time I reached 140, there was at least a football field between the two cars. Total spent to make my GS that fast FROM THE FIRST TIME I RAN HIM: Less than $1,000. I am yet to meet an M3 that I can't smoke in my GS and if I ever do, I will simply bring out my MKIV supra to play You guys should check out supraforums.com to see what happens to M3 drivers who think they have a real sports car...LOL
When I first swapped in the vvt-i 2JZ GTE in my GS, I ran one of my friends who owns a 2003 E46 M3. He had at least 4 to 5 car lenghts on me. At that time, I pretty much had everything stock except for 3" downpipe, exhaust and intercooler which means I was running about 11 lbs of boost AND I was hitting fuel cut since I did not have a boost cut controller on the car. Furthermore, my speed was limited to 112MPH. After installing the boost cut controller, swapping the JDM turbos for US spec turbos, and raising the boost to about 18lbs, we tried it again. It was not even close. By the time I reached 140, there was at least a football field between the two cars. Total spent to make my GS that fast FROM THE FIRST TIME I RAN HIM: Less than $1,000. I am yet to meet an M3 that I can't smoke in my GS and if I ever do, I will simply bring out my MKIV supra to play You guys should check out supraforums.com to see what happens to M3 drivers who think they have a real sports car...LOL
so what is your point again? how about someone swapping the m5 engine into the m5 and you kiss his *** goodbye? you are being ridiculous here anyway. like everyone has talked about, we are not talking about FI (ding ding) here, if you have FI and tuned well, you'd better off being able to kick the m3 ***, otherwise it's another good laugh.
and who's talking about over 120mph anyway? we are talking about 1/4 mile or so. if you talk about the m3, over 120 it starts to show its limit already coz' of its engine. you bring in the m5 or so and it will continue to entertain other cars after 120mph.
oh and 1000? yeah that's to remove the controller and to boost it all the way to 18 (man read, EIGHTEEN boost). why dont' we talk about the cost for the swap, as well as the parts? a new gs300 is about what, 45k? if you get a good gte swap on the car, that's 10k easy, so you are up to 55k already, you are not much far off from the m3.
yes, modding the m3 is limited, coz' the car is so well FINE tuned already to its max capactiy, so? that's the beauty of it, it shows the engineering achievement the germans have. do you see that on the lexus side? (don't get me wrong, i love toyota and lexus, but with all due respect they haven't done what the bimmer has)
you are picking a wrong war to fight bro, and what you said in your post completely stepped on your own toe. putting 18 boost turbo on the gte engine, if you can't get a football field away from him, it's a shame. how about going back to 11 boost and see how he keeps up with you (wait, and you are running FI already). both cars are great cars (gs4 and m3), to me they are not for the same league period. i never said the m3 isn't overpriced, but it has what it's worth. the gs4 has what it's worth too, at a lower price. but the answer to whether a modded gs4 can deal with a m3? maybe close, but the m3 will still edge (considering that you with 11 boost and still lose to it)
Last edited by rominl; 12-22-04 at 07:38 PM.
#93
Keeper of the light
iTrader: (17)
Originally Posted by BadAssGS3T
Not to mention that modifications to make that car go fast are EXTREMELY limited and RIDICULOUSLY expensive.
Incorrect. The ///M has quite a few options for BMW specific companies. UUC, Dinan, etc..... Multiple supercharger options...... twin turbo ///M3's such as "Bi-turbo" 's car over on BFC have posted vids of the E30 ///M3's killing everything that comes against them. (supra's included).
The fact is the ///M3 was never meant to be a strait line car. Anything can go fast in a strait line. Big accomplishment? Na... '72 pinto's with 454 supercharged big block transplants carring no weight and all ***** can pull those sub 10's all day. ..........at the end of the day... it is still a pinto.
The ///M3 is the industry standard in performance that most car's shoot for, along with the big brother ///M5. If you happen to build something faster down a strait line........ you better hope the road has a tree and timing lights, because on the street all roads curve and you lose.
Last edited by O. L. T.; 12-22-04 at 07:52 PM.
#94
Originally Posted by rominl
so what is your point again? how about someone swapping the m5 engine into the m5 and you kiss his *** goodbye? you are being ridiculous here anyway. like everyone has talked about, we are not talking about FI (ding ding) here, if you have FI and tuned well, you'd better off being able to kick the m3 ***, otherwise it's another good laugh.
and who's talking about over 120mph anyway? we are talking about 1/4 mile or so. if you talk about the m3, over 120 it starts to show its limit already coz' of its engine. you bring in the m5 or so and it will continue to entertain other cars after 120mph.
and who's talking about over 120mph anyway? we are talking about 1/4 mile or so. if you talk about the m3, over 120 it starts to show its limit already coz' of its engine. you bring in the m5 or so and it will continue to entertain other cars after 120mph.
As far as 120 MPH, a lot of cars trap more than that in the quarter mile. I have not had a chance to take my GS to the track yet but I have a feeling that I should trap close to 120MPH in the 1/4. My supra traps at 138MPH and it's FAAARRRR from being even close to the fastest supras out there running in full street trim and trapping close to 170MPH in the 1/4 mile.
Don't believe I only think that Supras are fast. I have respect for many sports cars out there including many domestic cars. The M3 is just not one of them because of its limitations.
Originally Posted by rominl
oh and 1000? yeah that's to remove the controller and to boost it all the way to 18 (man read, EIGHTEEN boost). why dont' we talk about the cost for the swap, as well as the parts? a new gs300 is about what, 45k? if you get a good gte swap on the car, that's 10k easy, so you are up to 55k already, you are not much far off from the m3.
yes, modding the m3 is limited, coz' the car is so well FINE tuned already to its max capactiy, so? that's the beauty of it, it shows the engineering achievement the germans have. do you see that on the lexus side? (don't get me wrong, i love toyota and lexus, but with all due respect they haven't done what the bimmer has)
yes, modding the m3 is limited, coz' the car is so well FINE tuned already to its max capactiy, so? that's the beauty of it, it shows the engineering achievement the germans have. do you see that on the lexus side? (don't get me wrong, i love toyota and lexus, but with all due respect they haven't done what the bimmer has)
You make me laugh when you talk about achievement. If anyone has achieved anything, it's Lexus/Toyota. They overbuilt the 2JZ GTE motor to the point where you can safely push 700rwhp on stock bottom end. I would love to see you try that with a bimmer...LOL...And just so that you know, you can SAFELY run 18 lbs EVERYDAY on the 2JZ GTE motor with STOCK turbos and internals. In fact, 18lbs is considered very conservative for a 2JZ GTE motor. Many guys are running 24, 25lbs on the stock turbos. In the supra, I run 36lbs using C16 and a single turbo with STOCK internals. Talk about achievement now!
Originally Posted by rominl
you are picking a wrong war to fight bro, and what you said in your post completely stepped on your own toe. putting 18 boost turbo on the gte engine, if you can't get a football field away from him, it's a shame. how about going back to 11 boost and see how he keeps up with you (wait, and you are running FI already). both cars are great cars (gs4 and m3), to me they are not for the same league period. i never said the m3 isn't overpriced, but it has what it's worth. the gs4 has what it's worth too, at a lower price. but the answer to whether a modded gs4 can deal with a m3? maybe close, but the m3 will still edge (considering that you with 11 boost and still lose to it)
#95
Originally Posted by O. L. T.
Incorrect. The ///M has quite a few options for BMW specific companies. UUC, Dinan, etc..... Multiple supercharger options...... twin turbo ///M3's such as "Bi-turbo" 's car over on BFC have posted vids of the E30 ///M3's killing everything that comes against them. (supra's included).
As far as the E30 killing some supras, I am not saying it's impossible but what were the specs of the supras it was running against and what are its specs? Also, I thought we were talking about the E46 M3. Regardless, at comparable levels of modifications, on the track on in straight line, supras will destroy M3s. I would still like to see the video you are talking about and check out that site though...
Originally Posted by O. L. T.
The fact is the ///M3 was never meant to be a strait line car. Anything can go fast in a strait line. Big accomplishment? Na... '72 pinto's with 454 supercharged big block transplants carring no weight and all ***** can pull those sub 10's all day. ..........at the end of the day... it is still a pinto.
The ///M3 is the industry standard in performance that most car's shoot for, along with the big brother ///M5. If you happen to build something faster down a strait line........ you better hope the road has a tree and timing lights, because on the street all roads curve and you lose.
The ///M3 is the industry standard in performance that most car's shoot for, along with the big brother ///M5. If you happen to build something faster down a strait line........ you better hope the road has a tree and timing lights, because on the street all roads curve and you lose.
#96
exclusive matchup
iTrader: (4)
must be nice when the post is read wrong is so many aspect isn't is
1) the thread is about gs4 (modded but no FI) vs m3, period, nada, zip. nothing more nothing less. and the answer is there, no argue, done deal. that's the purpose of this thread
2) supra forum? yeah sure, let's put a stock supra tt together with the m3 stock and see who wins, then we will talk. don't throw in more boost and stuff again, the supra tt engine is tuned to stand the FI, everything is designed with a different mindset. the m3 is designed to be a NA engine.
3) of course i don't forget about the v300, i have owned my gs long enough to know that. and so? it's a FI car. are we talking about FI?
4) well, 1/4 mile? gosh, where's our gs3 turbo that runs 8 or 9 sec at the drag strip all day long? so what's your point? i don't see it going with this thread
5) we are not talking about best bang for the bucks here man. i think to do a comparison you have to throw in all parameters well. we talking about slightly modded gs4 here with m3 (again). if you talk about best bang for the bucks, man, i am with you all day. when was the last time you find something for the bimmer that's cheaper than the same thing designed for toyota/lexus?
6) when/where did i say that running 18 boost on the gte engine is unsafe? i know it's a very "normal" and "safe" setup for the tt engine, and i know how strong that engine is.
7) if you talk about a engine that can handle the most power, i wont' disagree that the m3 engine is just ok. but again, you comparing a NA engine to a FI engine? what's the point. who knows if bimmer goes out and design a FI engine, maybe they can hold just as much power. on the other hand, i don't see toyota having a stock NA engine putting out that much power as the m3. putting 333 hp on NA i6, 396 hp on NA v8, and 504 hp on NA v10, imho that's achivements.
again i don't think i understood you wrong, but what i am saying is that you were trying to twist this post/poll to another level that's totally out of the scope of this thread. if you make a thread about how the m3 sux in terms of power improvement (aftermarket) vs some other cars, you will see me nodding all the way, since yes, for the e46 there is almost no way to increase the power further.
and i still want to stress the point about stock NA engine from factory. if you talk about that, then i think bmw did a pretty darn good job in squeezing every last big of power from the i6 engine. that's a lot of work.
yes, some people call that stupid and waste of time, but to me (this is subjective probably) it's a piece of art. it's so hard to really understand a NA engine so well to push out all the power. on the other hand, it's relatively easier to FI a car. BUT, you are right, toyota did a good job in making the gte engine (supra is one of the legendary cars no one can argue), which can allow high boost and high power. however that's FI we talking about, to me those are two different categories and it's just way too hard to compare them. it's almost true to say that FI can always produce more power than NA. that's why i keep on saying there is no point comparing these two aspects.
and i think thats the philosophy behind bmw, they don't want to go FI. that's probably when the next m3 will be v8 (or at least a lot of rumors), and the new m5 is already v10. just like mb with their supercharged v8, i think bimmer can just do a v8 engine with FI and push out as much power, but that's not the route they are taking.
just to conclude, i don't want you to get the wrong impression that i think you are wrong. no you are not. i can see what you are trying to say, but that's out of the scope of this thread, and i think there are plenty of credits where the m3 is due and deserved. you are making valid points about your comparison that bimmer is expensive (who wouldn't say so) and it's really "not that fast", but to me the bottom line is, what are we indeed comparing.
1) the thread is about gs4 (modded but no FI) vs m3, period, nada, zip. nothing more nothing less. and the answer is there, no argue, done deal. that's the purpose of this thread
2) supra forum? yeah sure, let's put a stock supra tt together with the m3 stock and see who wins, then we will talk. don't throw in more boost and stuff again, the supra tt engine is tuned to stand the FI, everything is designed with a different mindset. the m3 is designed to be a NA engine.
3) of course i don't forget about the v300, i have owned my gs long enough to know that. and so? it's a FI car. are we talking about FI?
4) well, 1/4 mile? gosh, where's our gs3 turbo that runs 8 or 9 sec at the drag strip all day long? so what's your point? i don't see it going with this thread
5) we are not talking about best bang for the bucks here man. i think to do a comparison you have to throw in all parameters well. we talking about slightly modded gs4 here with m3 (again). if you talk about best bang for the bucks, man, i am with you all day. when was the last time you find something for the bimmer that's cheaper than the same thing designed for toyota/lexus?
6) when/where did i say that running 18 boost on the gte engine is unsafe? i know it's a very "normal" and "safe" setup for the tt engine, and i know how strong that engine is.
7) if you talk about a engine that can handle the most power, i wont' disagree that the m3 engine is just ok. but again, you comparing a NA engine to a FI engine? what's the point. who knows if bimmer goes out and design a FI engine, maybe they can hold just as much power. on the other hand, i don't see toyota having a stock NA engine putting out that much power as the m3. putting 333 hp on NA i6, 396 hp on NA v8, and 504 hp on NA v10, imho that's achivements.
again i don't think i understood you wrong, but what i am saying is that you were trying to twist this post/poll to another level that's totally out of the scope of this thread. if you make a thread about how the m3 sux in terms of power improvement (aftermarket) vs some other cars, you will see me nodding all the way, since yes, for the e46 there is almost no way to increase the power further.
and i still want to stress the point about stock NA engine from factory. if you talk about that, then i think bmw did a pretty darn good job in squeezing every last big of power from the i6 engine. that's a lot of work.
yes, some people call that stupid and waste of time, but to me (this is subjective probably) it's a piece of art. it's so hard to really understand a NA engine so well to push out all the power. on the other hand, it's relatively easier to FI a car. BUT, you are right, toyota did a good job in making the gte engine (supra is one of the legendary cars no one can argue), which can allow high boost and high power. however that's FI we talking about, to me those are two different categories and it's just way too hard to compare them. it's almost true to say that FI can always produce more power than NA. that's why i keep on saying there is no point comparing these two aspects.
and i think thats the philosophy behind bmw, they don't want to go FI. that's probably when the next m3 will be v8 (or at least a lot of rumors), and the new m5 is already v10. just like mb with their supercharged v8, i think bimmer can just do a v8 engine with FI and push out as much power, but that's not the route they are taking.
just to conclude, i don't want you to get the wrong impression that i think you are wrong. no you are not. i can see what you are trying to say, but that's out of the scope of this thread, and i think there are plenty of credits where the m3 is due and deserved. you are making valid points about your comparison that bimmer is expensive (who wouldn't say so) and it's really "not that fast", but to me the bottom line is, what are we indeed comparing.
#97
Keeper of the light
iTrader: (17)
Originally Posted by BadAssGS3T
Blah blah blah.Blah blah blah Blah blah blah Blah blah blah Blah blah blah Blah blah blah Blah blah blah
When you make a valid point, i will address it.
Last edited by O. L. T.; 12-23-04 at 01:12 AM.
#98
Originally Posted by rominl
must be nice when the post is read wrong is so many aspect isn't is
1) the thread is about gs4 (modded but no FI) vs m3, period, nada, zip. nothing more nothing less. and the answer is there, no argue, done deal. that's the purpose of this thread
1) the thread is about gs4 (modded but no FI) vs m3, period, nada, zip. nothing more nothing less. and the answer is there, no argue, done deal. that's the purpose of this thread
Originally Posted by rominl
2) supra forum? yeah sure, let's put a stock supra tt together with the m3 stock and see who wins, then we will talk. don't throw in more boost and stuff again, the supra tt engine is tuned to stand the FI, everything is designed with a different mindset. the m3 is designed to be a NA engine.
Originally Posted by rominl
3) of course i don't forget about the v300, i have owned my gs long enough to know that. and so? it's a FI car. are we talking about FI?
4) well, 1/4 mile? gosh, where's our gs3 turbo that runs 8 or 9 sec at the drag strip all day long? so what's your point? i don't see it going with this thread
4) well, 1/4 mile? gosh, where's our gs3 turbo that runs 8 or 9 sec at the drag strip all day long? so what's your point? i don't see it going with this thread
Originally Posted by rominl
7) if you talk about a engine that can handle the most power, i wont' disagree that the m3 engine is just ok. but again, you comparing a NA engine to a FI engine? what's the point. who knows if bimmer goes out and design a FI engine, maybe they can hold just as much power. on the other hand, i don't see toyota having a stock NA engine putting out that much power as the m3. putting 333 hp on NA i6, 396 hp on NA v8, and 504 hp on NA v10, imho that's achivements.
Originally Posted by rominl
again i don't think i understood you wrong, but what i am saying is that you were trying to twist this post/poll to another level that's totally out of the scope of this thread. if you make a thread about how the m3 sux in terms of power improvement (aftermarket) vs some other cars, you will see me nodding all the way, since yes, for the e46 there is almost no way to increase the power further.
and i still want to stress the point about stock NA engine from factory. if you talk about that, then i think bmw did a pretty darn good job in squeezing every last big of power from the i6 engine. that's a lot of work.
yes, some people call that stupid and waste of time, but to me (this is subjective probably) it's a piece of art. it's so hard to really understand a NA engine so well to push out all the power. on the other hand, it's relatively easier to FI a car. BUT, you are right, toyota did a good job in making the gte engine (supra is one of the legendary cars no one can argue), which can allow high boost and high power. however that's FI we talking about, to me those are two different categories and it's just way too hard to compare them. it's almost true to say that FI can always produce more power than NA. that's why i keep on saying there is no point comparing these two aspects.
and i think thats the philosophy behind bmw, they don't want to go FI. that's probably when the next m3 will be v8 (or at least a lot of rumors), and the new m5 is already v10. just like mb with their supercharged v8, i think bimmer can just do a v8 engine with FI and push out as much power, but that's not the route they are taking.
just to conclude, i don't want you to get the wrong impression that i think you are wrong. no you are not. i can see what you are trying to say, but that's out of the scope of this thread, and i think there are plenty of credits where the m3 is due and deserved. you are making valid points about your comparison that bimmer is expensive (who wouldn't say so) and it's really "not that fast", but to me the bottom line is, what are we indeed comparing.
and i still want to stress the point about stock NA engine from factory. if you talk about that, then i think bmw did a pretty darn good job in squeezing every last big of power from the i6 engine. that's a lot of work.
yes, some people call that stupid and waste of time, but to me (this is subjective probably) it's a piece of art. it's so hard to really understand a NA engine so well to push out all the power. on the other hand, it's relatively easier to FI a car. BUT, you are right, toyota did a good job in making the gte engine (supra is one of the legendary cars no one can argue), which can allow high boost and high power. however that's FI we talking about, to me those are two different categories and it's just way too hard to compare them. it's almost true to say that FI can always produce more power than NA. that's why i keep on saying there is no point comparing these two aspects.
and i think thats the philosophy behind bmw, they don't want to go FI. that's probably when the next m3 will be v8 (or at least a lot of rumors), and the new m5 is already v10. just like mb with their supercharged v8, i think bimmer can just do a v8 engine with FI and push out as much power, but that's not the route they are taking.
just to conclude, i don't want you to get the wrong impression that i think you are wrong. no you are not. i can see what you are trying to say, but that's out of the scope of this thread, and i think there are plenty of credits where the m3 is due and deserved. you are making valid points about your comparison that bimmer is expensive (who wouldn't say so) and it's really "not that fast", but to me the bottom line is, what are we indeed comparing.
#100
Even that I don't consider to be achievement. There are guys getting a lot more power out of their naturally aspirated 4 bangers. FYI, the fastest all motor civic runs 10.68 @129MPH. That's achievement and they don't even have the millions of dollars from a factory to back them up.
BMW believes in balanced cars. In other words, they won't build a torque monster type car as they believe it unbalances the chassis. I recall a quote from one of their engineers stating that they will always make the chassis quicker than the engine (or words to that effect). Just different philosophies. In fact, Toyota's engine development is much more along the lines of BMW's high-revving engines than, for example, AMG.
Last edited by KKelly; 12-23-04 at 01:09 PM.
#102
Pole Position
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts
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[QUOTE=HKS_GS430]GS430 w/mods should be about the same as the E36 bimmers,,but the new E46 are out of our league. A mod gs430 can break in to 13's. thats good enough to get a E36. too bad everyone around boston got E46 now, but a lil NOS will even the game
#103
Guest
Posts: n/a
[QUOTE=HKS_GS430]
Having raced both in the old GS, yes a modded GS 4 can keep up and stay with a E36M. You MUSt add supsension pieces, PERIOD for this to happen as well as making your car faster with bolt ons.
The E46, no way. That car is clearly 1 step ahead. Remember, we got the US 240hp M3, not the 315hp Euro version. We did get the Euro/Worldwide, E46M3.
Originally Posted by HKS_GS430
GS430 w/mods should be about the same as the E36 bimmers,,but the new E46 are out of our league. A mod gs430 can break in to 13's. thats good enough to get a E36. too bad everyone around boston got E46 now, but a lil NOS will even the game
The E46, no way. That car is clearly 1 step ahead. Remember, we got the US 240hp M3, not the 315hp Euro version. We did get the Euro/Worldwide, E46M3.
#104
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Arizona
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I was driving state rd 87 in Arizona in my '03 GS430, completely L-tuned and with STB and 3.76 LSD.
A friend of mine was driving his '04 M3. We were each doing a buck twenty and I had a great view of his tail.
I've driven his car before. Unbelievable torque and extremely stable on curves. You would think that it had a giant magnet keeping it down.
Now, put a blower in the 430 and it would be a different ballgame.
A friend of mine was driving his '04 M3. We were each doing a buck twenty and I had a great view of his tail.
I've driven his car before. Unbelievable torque and extremely stable on curves. You would think that it had a giant magnet keeping it down.
Now, put a blower in the 430 and it would be a different ballgame.