Cadd

Hey guys,

As some of you may know, I'm looking for a 2000 GS4 with the Naki pkg and 17s. But it looks like that combo is hard to come by around here.

Anyway, here's what I need help with. I test drove a 99 GS4 that was originally a leased vehicle. The lessee then purchased the vehicle at the end of the lease. He now owns the vehicle (still financing it).

1st question: Ownership changed hands 3 times. His dad owned/leased it, then they changed it to his name.....but then found out that insurance was a killer and they changed it back to his dad's name.

Is there anyway to prove this? I thought the title of the car only showed the CURRENT owner (is there a way to find out how many times ownership changed?)

2nd Question: I ran a carfax on it and it showed "INCONSISTENT ODOMETER READING FOUND" (see attached picture). Can the odometer be rolled back on cars like the GS400? I thought it was really really really difficult to roll back the odo on cars with digital odometers. Is this true?

Currently the owner is trying to get receipts of oil changes and brake jobs that were done at a non-Lexus place (I think done at Pep Boys) to prove that the INCONSISTENT odo reading was in fact a clerical error.

We're almost final on price. I told him I'll make him a counter offer after I see receipts/proof that the odo reading was an error. I will also have the car brought in to a Lexus dealership for a diagnostic (which will cost $100). When I called the dealership, the ding bat on the phone couldn't answer my questions. I specifically asked her what will be looked at. I also asked her to e-mail/fax me an itemized list of items that will checked and tested. She had no clue what an itemized list is. I finally spoke with a techician and asked if a compression test will be done, he said "it will be done at a higher price" and switched me back to the dingbat.........Anyway, not to go off topic, but I think this dealership is runned by morons (but I've heard lots of good things about them on this board though ). Just in case you're curious, it's Lexus of Massapequa.

3rd Question: Many people on this board recommended to run the VIN number with a Lexus dealership to see the maintenance record. Does Lexus charge you for this? Do you do this over the phone or in person? Would they e-mail or fax it to you?

4th Question: After bringing the car to the Lexus dealer, I will bring it to a local shop and a body shop. Does anyone know how much a bodyshop would charge for "checking the car out" for damages that have been repaired.

Sorry for the long post......but I feel I may join you in the ranks of being a GS4 owner soon. Here's the carfax, let me know what you think.

SeattleGS400

iTrader: (1)

2nd Question: I ran a carfax on it and it showed "INCONSISTENT ODOMETER READING FOUND" (see attached picture). Can the odometer be rolled back on cars like the GS400? I thought it was really really really difficult to roll back the odo on cars with digital odometers. Is this true?

I've heard that you CAN dial back the digital odometer readings on the car if you knew what you were doing--what that entails, I'm not sure (main ECU, and a few other parts?).

3rd Question: Many people on this board recommended to run the VIN number with a Lexus dealership to see the maintenance record. Does Lexus charge you for this? Do you do this over the phone or in person? Would they e-mail or fax it to you?

The dealer can only check what service was actually done at any Lexus dealership--of course, if they did the service elsewhere, then it won't show up. My dealer ran a VIN history check, and he printed out a full service history of it up for me--a main index of service done at mileage intervals, then for each mileage interval, he printed up a full detail printout.

I did it in person while I was there for an alignment, and it was free of charge. He was even helpful enough to supply free thin felt for me to use to cut down on my squeaking, and a sunroof TSB for getting rid of the sunroof rattle. Maybe some dealerships are more helpful than others.

On a separate note, if you have them do a buyer's inspection, the should give you a list of things they checked out, and what they advise for you to replace, repair, etc. Compression checks were another $60, if you wanted it done.

Good luck.

rodel

iTrader: (3)

1st question: Ownership changed hands 3 times. His dad owned/leased it, then they changed it to his name.....but then found out that insurance was a killer and they changed it back to his dad's name.

Is there anyway to prove this? I thought the title of the car only showed the CURRENT owner (is there a way to find out how many times ownership changed?)


Look at your carfax and see how many times title was issued. But just because title is issued multiple times, it does not mean it changed ownership. For example, if you register your car in a different state, title is issued.


2nd Question: I ran a carfax on it and it showed "INCONSISTENT ODOMETER READING FOUND" (see attached picture). Can the odometer be rolled back on cars like the GS400? I thought it was really really really difficult to roll back the odo on cars with digital odometers. Is this true?


Between 6/31/2001 and 7/20/2003, the car was drive -5675 miles. Pehaps, there was clerical error when the shop sent the smog result to the DMV.

My questions is...why did the car average 23,088 miles per year between 10/13/99 and 6/3/2001, then only 2701 miles per year between 6/2/2001 and 10/12/2003.

I wouldn't take it so hard on the dingbat over the phone. She was just probably a clerk that wouldn't know anything about diagnostics.



3rd Question: Many people on this board recommended to run the VIN number with a Lexus dealership to see the maintenance record. Does Lexus charge you for this? Do you do this over the phone or in person? Would they e-mail or fax it to you?

A particular Lexus dealer will only give you information on work that it did on that car. If you contact a dealer that has never serviced the car that you're buying, then they won't have any maintenance records. You'd have to go the dealer that the seller took the car to.

4th Question: After bringing the car to the Lexus dealer, I will bring it to a local shop and a body shop. Does anyone know how much a bodyshop would charge for "checking the car out" for damages that have been repaired.

Cost will vary from shop to shop. You could get charged $50, $100, etc...


There are many uncertainties about this car. If I was in your position, I would look for another car. A few months ago, I was looking for a Camry for my sister. A private seller advertised $2000 below the blue book value. He did not seem desparate to sell the car. Most people want blue book value for their car. I believe that most car sellers are not dumb. When deals seem too good to be true, I pass on them. When there is a lot of uncertainty on a car, I pass on it.

Cadd

The reason, he's trying to get receipts from Pep Boys for oil changes is because if Pep Boys wrote on the receipt what the mileage of the car was while it was in for an oil change, it will contradict what is reported on CARFAX.

What do you guys think after looking a that carfax report? If you were me, would you consider it or would you just look elsewhere?

Thx,
Cadd

gs400998

You can also run a second vin report from another site such as autocheck.com. IMO, I would be looking at another vehicle if the carfax report suspects a possible rollback.

3dog

iTrader: (1)

quote:
Originally posted by Cadd

3rd Question: Many people on this board recommended to run the VIN number with a Lexus dealership to see the maintenance record. Does Lexus charge you for this? Do you do this over the phone or in person? Would they e-mail or fax it to you?


my lexus dealer did this and got all records from every lexus dealer it had ever been to. i did not buy the car from them. it had been a leased lexus for a while and one owner after that. but i had them run a maintenace history on the car while i had it in for an oil change.
they did not charge for this service and it was very informative. i would assume since i got my oil change there they wanted me to continue doing service with them but i have never gone back as i can get everything done cheaper elsewhere and car is a 1999 with 55k on it and warrenty is all gone.

Cadd

Another question:

He is financing the car. I'm assuming the title is NOT under his name (or under his dad's name). I'm assuming the title is under the bank's name. Is this true?

If so, how can I get the title transferred over to me? I don't want to pay him before the title gets transferred.

Dennis-C

If there is a lien on the car then yes, the bank owns the title. Untill the car is paid off 100% the bank will not turn the title over to the registered owner. The bank wants to ensure they get their loan paid off.

Unless you pay cash, you will not own the title either. If you finance the car through your bank, his bank will just transfer the title over to your bank.

What price did you guys agree on?

Cadd

I will pay cash.

We did not agree on the price yet. If he finds all the paperwork/receipts of oil changes which shows the mileage on the car at a certain point in time, then I will offer $20k. I threw that number out at him and he somewhat accepted it.

But if there is no proof that the carfax odometer reading was an error, then I really have to consider buying it.

So, if I pay cash for the car (which I will), how will I get the title transferred?

Sometimes, dealing with a used car dealer can be easier.....sigh.

What other documents do I need? I drafted up a Bill Of Sale. I'm assuming I'll need that and the title right? Anything else?

Johnny Mo

While I'd love to be able to tell you that Carfax is always right - I can't. It is possible that the mileage was just a clerical error, I have seen this happen. That being said it happened during the first registration, not part way thru. You can check with the the DMV, because in NY they would have to record the mileage during the annual inspections..then you can see if it the numbers jive...if that's where carfax gets them from then personally I'd stay away.

Think about it this way...a year or two you decide to upgrade and want to sell it yourself...someone runs a carfax....what are you going to tell them to get them all warm and fuzzy about their purchase of your car???

Cadd

Johhny, I gave the seller 3 reasons that I have with the car


1 - Mileage issue. Exact same thing you said. I won't be able to sell the car unless I decided to pimp it away.

2 - Warranty issue. I was looking for a 2000MY. If I get a late build 2000MY, I would still have a couple of months of the bumper-to-bumper warranty left, so I have a safety net to fall back on.

3 - Not the pkg I was looking for. He has the plain Premium Pkg. I wanted these these pkgs in the following order:
- the Platinum Pkg (I think only offered in 2000 and up) with the Naka stand alone option
- the Nakamichi Audio Pkg
- the Navi pkg (even though I don't really need/want a Navi)

So, these were the reasons I gave him to justify taking off a couple of grand off his asking price. But if the readings were from annual inspections, I would definitely stay away from the car (although, sometimes the autoshops can type in a wrong number).

Also, what's odd about the 38,500 number is that it is a nice ROUND number. Notice the other numbers......you see 32,826 and 44,803. So, the 38,500 can be an error.

But even though this isn't the exact car that I'm looking for, if he does have proof that the mileage is due to an error, I will still buy it. I think $20k for a 99 with 46k miles isn't bad. The car is black on black and it seems to be garaged. The body is in very good shape for a 99 and the only seat that seems to show wear is the driverside seat (only the the upper part of the seat where you back leans against).

BTW, his dad has a 90 LS400 (one of the first Lexus around???) sitting next to this one in the garage.

Cadd

So what do you guys think? For $20k, would you do it?

hawk

first, two things:
1. sounds like you really want a car. good times good times; however.........
2. i caution you because it seems like you just want a car, and are not prioritizing the mechanical elements to it all---these being that is it possible you're so eager to get a GS that you might be willing to overlook some issues with the one you found in order to just get a GS?

anywho....
it is possible this is a clerical error as per the mileage stuff.....however, you'd be crazy to buy the car with this problem on its title because once you buy the car, the responsibility to fix this title fiasco becomes yours.

A minimal condition of your purchase ought to be that he get the title cleared up. I could only imagine the NIGHTMARE of trying to fix the title of the car when you did not own the thing during the time in which the title mishap occurred (if, indeed, it is just a simple clerical error).

having all the little pep boys receipts is nice and all, but let's face it---if for some reason you ever need to sell the car, this little title problem will knock quite a bit of cash off the value of the vehicle. again, it's absolutely, unequivocally, totally the responsibility of the seller to clear the title for you!

also, when getting the lexus records, they might tell you that all they can do is pull up what services were done at that particular dealership. Well, that's not entirely true--they can pull up the national records--it's just that it takes a couple minutes to search and yadda yadda yadda.

You do have one small trick up your sleeve: when you call the lexus dealership for the records, see if you can get them to give you the name under which they have the car registered in the lexus database. this could verify the sketchy (in my opinion) story that this guy is giving to you by checking if the last name from the database matches his/his dad's. it's kind of a long story as to why i think his story is sketchy, but his reasons for changing the title so many times don't add up financially, and (i'm pretty sure about this following sentence, but not 110% sure -->) there are other "outs" to avoid the costs he claims he was trying to avoid by switching the title back and forth.......so either he is lying (if i'm right) or he has the mental capacity of a senile gnat when it comes to saving himself money.

Also, CALL your insurance company and ask them to run a check on it (give them the VIN number).......they have their ways of finding out stuff that the general public can't find out.

it's your money; but, amigo, there's plenty of other GS's around that you can get.

hawk

sorry....i just caught some stuff on that carfax....

now i'm a bit more confident that they might be feeding you a story:

1. you say his dad has had the car since it was brand new, right, and that he originally leased it and then purchased the car at the end of the lease? well, slight problem with that as far as leases go. i've seen a lot of vehicle records and database stuff before and i've never known of leases not showing up (even on carfax), so here's the problem:

A. 08/31/99 says it was registered as a personal vehicle. By saying that it's a personal vehicle AND the absence of any lien being reported on it, means that the original owner paid upfront for the car--no loan.

Still think there's no loan because it was a lease? now look down on that carfax report you have and pay close attention to the section that says "Types of Owners." If I had to bet, there's no record there of the car ever being a leased vehicle; the report probably says in that section "FYI No Lease Registration Reported." As horrible as carfax is, even they have trouble not knowing about Lease records. And the lexus dealer, even if they won't release the name under which the car is registered with the Lexus national database (for privacy reasons, if you tried this to verify any info about what the guy has told you thus far), would almost for sure be sympathetic to verify for you at the very least whether or not that car has ever been a leased vehicle. It would show up under Toyota Motor Credit Corporation or Lexus Financial Services.

basically on a Lexus Lease, the records would show the car being delivered to the dealer and then quickly sold to Lexus Financial services for the lease.

And what makes me REALLY believe that the car was never leased is that the 8/31/99 and 10/13/99 title events are regarding the same event of the car being taken delivery of by the first user, who is conveniently identified as the "First Owner."

8/31/99 to 6/3/01(when first lien is reported)--i've never really heard of a 21 month lease? anyone else have any clue?

i could be totally wrong on all of this and maybe it's something weird to do with New York, but i've seen a whole bunch of vehicle reports before and this one combined with the story they're giving you--it's not adding up.

Maybe everything will pan out and I'll be completely wrong, but I really think there are waaay too many questions left to be answered.

Cadd

Hawk, I was concerned about it not showing up as a lease vehicle on carfax as well (I ran over 50 carfaxes and the ones that I know for sure that were leased, carfax showed them as either: personal lease or business lease). I have to really go over the paper work with him and make sure his dad did lease it. I know leases are usually either 36 or 39 months around here....so it did sound a little fishy to me too. I'm waiting for his call to see if he can get receipts first. If he does, then I'll go over ALL the paperwork with him. I'll ask for copies of checks that they issued to lease the car. I'll get all the name changes from them (also, would the DMV provide me with that info?). I'll see how it goes. He seems like an honest guy, but at the same time, he seemed pretty desperate to sell the car.