Why should I pick the GS300 over these other cars?
10-18-04, 10:25 AM
#31
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Originally posted by T.L.W.
im curious
have you asked the same question
on those forums
would like to know what they would say
im curious
have you asked the same question
on those forums
would like to know what they would say
Is that a souped up Toyota?
I want a real stick shift instead of the push button electronic shifter
It certainly doesn't turn heads or attract any interest (My neighbors thought it was a new Toyota).
At the MB forums:
Go with a true luxury Eurpean car. Bling Bling!
Get the MB. Add some 22's and you'll be pimpin'
Lexus is a poor man's Benz
The GS. .. Nothing but the fake e-class lights
If you want an E-Class but cannot afford one, your next best bet is the Toyota Aristo oops I mean Lexus GS
10-18-04, 05:25 PM
#32
It certainly doesn't turn heads or attract any interest (My neighbors thought it was a new Toyota).
Like I said, performance wise, the GS400 beats all of them. Most dated styling of the cars, and (IMO) the most sleek and aggressive styling which was why I ended up with it and not a 540i or E320. It's not about the logo on the grill.
And I see nothing wrong in driving a glorified Toyota. That glorified Toyota brand is also the best selling luxury car in America.
10-18-04, 05:33 PM
#33
Lexus Fanatic
Originally posted by Ditto
At the Bimmer forums:
Is that a souped up Toyota?
I want a real stick shift instead of the push button electronic shifter
It certainly doesn't turn heads or attract any interest (My neighbors thought it was a new Toyota).
At the MB forums:
Go with a true luxury Eurpean car. Bling Bling!
Get the MB. Add some 22's and you'll be pimpin'
Lexus is a poor man's Benz
The GS. .. Nothing but the fake e-class lights
If you want an E-Class but cannot afford one, your next best bet is the Toyota Aristo oops I mean Lexus GS
At the Bimmer forums:
Is that a souped up Toyota?
I want a real stick shift instead of the push button electronic shifter
It certainly doesn't turn heads or attract any interest (My neighbors thought it was a new Toyota).
At the MB forums:
Go with a true luxury Eurpean car. Bling Bling!
Get the MB. Add some 22's and you'll be pimpin'
Lexus is a poor man's Benz
The GS. .. Nothing but the fake e-class lights
If you want an E-Class but cannot afford one, your next best bet is the Toyota Aristo oops I mean Lexus GS
10-18-04, 06:00 PM
#34
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seems like both are directed towars the GS...
Anyway, I can't go wrong with these cars. They are all good cars. I think I'll just go with the best deal I can find. Although, if I were to choose one for the same price, I would buy the 528(I love bimmers). @nd would be the GS300 then the E320. I would pick the GS400 over all of the choices though.
PS my dad owned an 87' 528E and that thing handled really tight and it was REALLY reliable.
Anyway, I can't go wrong with these cars. They are all good cars. I think I'll just go with the best deal I can find. Although, if I were to choose one for the same price, I would buy the 528(I love bimmers). @nd would be the GS300 then the E320. I would pick the GS400 over all of the choices though.
PS my dad owned an 87' 528E and that thing handled really tight and it was REALLY reliable.
10-18-04, 07:36 PM
#36
which car
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
E came out in 1996. GS 1998.
E came out in 1996. GS 1998.
You're right this model E came out in 96. Don't forget the 280E then 300E then the E320.....
Benz has been making middle of the pack luxury sedans a lot longer. That doesn't mean they're better but they should be with that much head start. This is more of a statement by Lexus that they have caught and surpassed a brand with so much history. Actually, I have a fondness for the E-class of 94 and 95. Those were the best imo. My buddy has a 2000 E320. He hates to admit his car is not as reliable as Lexus. He thinks his car is better but I always counter by saying, "your's is great...when it's running." Benz owners seem to get this attitude that makes them think theirs is best. Heck, I really like my car but I'll take an NSX over it any day.
10-18-04, 09:27 PM
#37
Lexus Champion
I believe it was JD power than released a quick stat that said that on average, a 7 year old LS400 (1997) has roughly equal if not slightly better reliability to that of a brand new 04 BMW 7-series.
That's not to say that the BMW is a POS, it's just to say that Lexus builds their cars to be USED and ABUSED. They overbuild their cars from the ground up for any potential situation and to last for years upon years of this treatment.
Lexus also build their cars to be quiet and comfortable. Drive a GS and then the 5-series and you'll notice a polar opposite personality. The 5-series will feel solid, but just imagine taking it on a road trip. It's really not that comfortable IMO... very bumpy and direct.
Of course this leads to the 5-series advantage... handling. My GS4 now outhandles a brand new BMW 5-series (as I've confirmed myself), but it took a couple grand in mods, and I also had to give up some ride quality (but it's still nowhere near as rough as the 5-series).
The 540 also has quite a bit more off the line punch than my GS400... but at higher RPM, the GS400 pulls like a bat out of hell... the 540 just doesn't seem to like to rev as much. Personally I prefer the 540's powerband, as low RPM power is more usable to me. But then again the Lexus motor is positively silent with no NVH at all.. same can't be said for the 5-series (although it's still not bad).
Anyhow... I decided "You can mod a lexus to handle and accelerate like a BMW, but you can't mod a BMW to be reliable and comfortable like a Lexus"
That's not to say that the BMW is a POS, it's just to say that Lexus builds their cars to be USED and ABUSED. They overbuild their cars from the ground up for any potential situation and to last for years upon years of this treatment.
Lexus also build their cars to be quiet and comfortable. Drive a GS and then the 5-series and you'll notice a polar opposite personality. The 5-series will feel solid, but just imagine taking it on a road trip. It's really not that comfortable IMO... very bumpy and direct.
Of course this leads to the 5-series advantage... handling. My GS4 now outhandles a brand new BMW 5-series (as I've confirmed myself), but it took a couple grand in mods, and I also had to give up some ride quality (but it's still nowhere near as rough as the 5-series).
The 540 also has quite a bit more off the line punch than my GS400... but at higher RPM, the GS400 pulls like a bat out of hell... the 540 just doesn't seem to like to rev as much. Personally I prefer the 540's powerband, as low RPM power is more usable to me. But then again the Lexus motor is positively silent with no NVH at all.. same can't be said for the 5-series (although it's still not bad).
Anyhow... I decided "You can mod a lexus to handle and accelerate like a BMW, but you can't mod a BMW to be reliable and comfortable like a Lexus"
10-19-04, 10:19 AM
#38
Originally posted by Threxx
Anyhow... I decided "You can mod a lexus to handle and accelerate like a BMW, but you can't mod a BMW to be reliable and comfortable like a Lexus" [/B]
Anyhow... I decided "You can mod a lexus to handle and accelerate like a BMW, but you can't mod a BMW to be reliable and comfortable like a Lexus" [/B]
On a side note, I got a letter from Mercedes for a safety recall for a "faulty fuse holder" on my 2001 S500.
Just a heads up also for other MB owners here.
10-19-04, 11:21 AM
#39
Originally posted by Ditto
At the Bimmer forums:
Is that a souped up Toyota?
I want a real stick shift instead of the push button electronic shifter
It certainly doesn't turn heads or attract any interest (My neighbors thought it was a new Toyota).
At the MB forums:
Go with a true luxury Eurpean car. Bling Bling!
Get the MB. Add some 22's and you'll be pimpin'
Lexus is a poor man's Benz
The GS. .. Nothing but the fake e-class lights
If you want an E-Class but cannot afford one, your next best bet is the Toyota Aristo oops I mean Lexus GS
At the Bimmer forums:
Is that a souped up Toyota?
I want a real stick shift instead of the push button electronic shifter
It certainly doesn't turn heads or attract any interest (My neighbors thought it was a new Toyota).
At the MB forums:
Go with a true luxury Eurpean car. Bling Bling!
Get the MB. Add some 22's and you'll be pimpin'
Lexus is a poor man's Benz
The GS. .. Nothing but the fake e-class lights
If you want an E-Class but cannot afford one, your next best bet is the Toyota Aristo oops I mean Lexus GS
Yes, those are my souped up Toyota tail lights you are looking at Mr. 540i
To the MBs
Benz is a rich rednecks Hemi
10-20-04, 06:09 AM
#40
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The #1 reasons for choosing Lexus over the other two are reliability and dealer service.
(Do you plan on keeping these cars beyond the factory warranty?)
All three are great cars. If "cost per mile" means anything to you, go with Lexus.
(Do you plan on keeping these cars beyond the factory warranty?)
All three are great cars. If "cost per mile" means anything to you, go with Lexus.
10-20-04, 09:52 AM
#41
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The 2 comments from the mb and bmw forums emphasis nothing on the GS durability and maintenance cost, but only in regards to cosmetic items (real shifter or bling bling status).
Also, the statement ppl said that Lexus is just a Toyota. My reply would be...Yes it's a Toyota, It’s that brand that America trusted most, which makes the best selling car (Camry) in America you talking about?
Also, the statement ppl said that Lexus is just a Toyota. My reply would be...Yes it's a Toyota, It’s that brand that America trusted most, which makes the best selling car (Camry) in America you talking about?
10-20-04, 11:53 AM
#42
Lexus Champion
Yeah I would like to add about people saying that Lexus is just a fancy Toyota. To me, that's a good thing.
Let me put this into economic perspective to you.
BMW goes out to design a car that costs around 50,000 dollars MSRP.
Let's say that 10,000 of that right off the bat goes to dealer profit and BMW's profit, as well as any discounts/rebates/incentives that are given at any given time to accelerate sales or to close any particular sale.
So now BMW has to make their 50,000 dollar car cost 40,000 to make. This has to not only pay for the materials to build the car, but most of all, it has to pay for research and development, marketing, and all of the overhead expenses such as manufacturing facilities, office space, etc, etc.
Do you remember 'economies of scale' from your economics classes in highschool/college? It's the concept that the more you purchase, the less it costs your supplier to supply you per item and the more "pull" you have in negotiating a better price per part.
If you still don't understand then read this paragraph, if you do, then skip to the next one. As an example of this we'll say you own a small mom and pop shop that sells a bunch of stuff. One of them is candy. You buy the candy straight from Hershey's in Pennsylvania. You have an account rep at Hersheys that takes your orders, which consist of maybe 4,000 dollars worth of candy (what you pay for it) every year. It's a relatively small account for this guy, and he's not even one of their senior reps. He specializes in taking care of the small guys. Still, it takes him a couple of hours a year to maintain your account and make adjustments to your supply and such, plus to colaborate with the delivery guy and have him make a trip out to your shop from time to time. Overall the candy they supply you may only cost them half of what you're paying for it, but when you add the account rep's time, their overhead costs for maintaining an additional account, the delivery guy's time, etc, etc. By the time they add all of this to the actual materials cost, their cost of selling you is relatively high. Thus they have to charge you more, not to mention being that it's a smaller account, if they want to make a worthwhile profit on such a small yearly sale, they need to build in more profit. In the end this causes you to have to charge the consumer a higher price for the exact same quality of item that the Target store down the street is charging. Why can walmart charge less for the exact same quality? Well because they purchase so many millions of dollars in candy every year, so Hersheys has significantly lower overhead costs per unit of candy they sell to Target. Furthermore, if you the shop owner demand a lower price or else you'll stop selling Hershey's candy, they're likely to look at the dismall profit they're already making on your small yearly purchase and laugh and say "go right ahead". If target threatens to do the same, Hersheys will comply in a hurry if they can possibly cut anything off of their prices. Why? Well not only is "lots of business" better than "no business" in terms of making money, but to lose Target as a seller would mean that their overall production would drop and thus their overhead for other suppliers would increase. That's the same reason group buys work on message boards!
I'm sure or at least hope most of you realize that all car manufacturers have the large majority of their raw materials and parts purchased from third party companies. They purchase the steel from particular steel mills, they even purchase parts such as lense covers on dash clusters or tail light assemblies, or wood grain or just about any other single componant of the car from individual suppliers. Those parts are then assembled per the design specs to make the car itself.
When you have a company like Lexus with a parent company like Toyota, it's like having Walmart start up a smaller specialty chain that specializes in high end products for reasonable prices. Walmart can then call their same account rep who supplies their candy for their Walmart stores, and ask their candy supplier for a higher grade of candy but at the same discount that their purchasing power from their walmart stores affords them.
Just like this Lexus can go to their same Toyota parts suppliers, and ask for a higher grade of part along with their much larger order of 'normal' grade parts, but at a steep discount despite the limited quantity because all that company wants to retain the other 90% of their business that Toyota is giving them. Furthermore, if Lexus demands that their Lexus parts meet a certain very tight standard for defective parts per million... something much much more demanding than the current industry average, the parts supplier says "Absolutely we will do it and do it with a smile." rather than "well we'll give it a shot and if it's too hard you can just find somebody else to do it"
In some cases, parts really don't have a higher grade, and thus Lexus just borrows parts from the Toyota parts bin. And anyone who knows Lexus as a company knows that if it can be made better, it will be. If it can't, then it is left alone.
This explains how Lexus can get a better deal on parts due to their parent company being Toyota. Using this logic you can see how a luxury car or any low-volume (exotic handmade italian cars come to mind) company has a much higher cost per part in relation to the quality of the part.
So now we go back to our BMW example for engineering costs. BMW now has to engineer a car from 100% scratch including all of its small accessories and parts. Lets say this costs BMW twenty million dollars because they have to do everything from the ground up. Now let's assume that BMW sells 20,000 of this model of car during its product lifetime (until they do the next ground up redesign). What is their overall cost per car to design? 10,000 dollars per car.
Now let's say Lexus has to design a similar vehicle. Well thier costs are only going to be fifteen million because five million dollars worth of quality engineering and testing from some of their other current Toyota models already answers quite a few questions their engineers would otherwise have had to spend the time and money answering for themselves, and some parts are already in the Toyota parts bin and Toyota knows already that they are not worth the cost of redesigning specifically for their Lexus models. OK so let's just say the Lexus sells the same number of this model as BMW sells of theirs... 20,000 in the product's lifetime. So now we have an engineering cost of 7500 per Lexus vehicle, whereas BMW has an engineering cost per vehicle of 10,000 dollars per car. One is not necessarily engineered better than the other, it's just that one engineering team already had an extensive cache of research and development from which to draw from and improve upon where they saw it would make a difference.
Well let's take this engineering one step further. Let's say the Lexus engineers have tweaked a few of the Toyota designs in a way that makes a nice improvement upon them without actually increasing the production cost of the vehicle. So what does Toyota get to do next time they redesign one of their cars? They can consider implementing this new technology into their new vehicle! So in turn this saves money when Toyota goes to engineer their new vehicles. And being that Toyota is the same company, well they just saved themselves some money which even if it doesn't technically show up in Lexus' accounting books, it benefits the same company in the end thus freeing up even more money for whatever it is needed for in the future.
Oh and one more thing on the note of engineering. When Toyota has 25 times the number of their cars driving around as BMW has of their cars... they have a better sample of which they can determine what designs work and what designs are faulty. This way they can recognize and correct or improve upon their mistakes or faults much more quickly than BMW.
Finally let us consider other overhead such as marketing, administration, facilities, etc. This works on the same economies of scale principle. Even though Lexus' administration and marketing and such is pretty well seperated locally... up top, they are all run by the same people making only one paycheck, and given the level of automation and corporate streamlining that Toyota can afford to do, adding Lexus as one more facility to their company does not increase Toyota's costs as a whole nearly as much as it costs BMW to operate as a lone company. In this same way, Toyota can distribute their same cache of parts through their same network to Lexus dealerships as well, saving even more money.
Anyhow... in conclusion to this and as proof: why do you think Mercedes Benz is now Daimler-Chrysler? Why do you think GM bought/merged with Saab? Why do you think Ford bought/merged with Jaguar? Because economies of scale are the only way to maintain or increase profits while supplying the consumer with a superior product in today's market.
Let me put this into economic perspective to you.
BMW goes out to design a car that costs around 50,000 dollars MSRP.
Let's say that 10,000 of that right off the bat goes to dealer profit and BMW's profit, as well as any discounts/rebates/incentives that are given at any given time to accelerate sales or to close any particular sale.
So now BMW has to make their 50,000 dollar car cost 40,000 to make. This has to not only pay for the materials to build the car, but most of all, it has to pay for research and development, marketing, and all of the overhead expenses such as manufacturing facilities, office space, etc, etc.
Do you remember 'economies of scale' from your economics classes in highschool/college? It's the concept that the more you purchase, the less it costs your supplier to supply you per item and the more "pull" you have in negotiating a better price per part.
If you still don't understand then read this paragraph, if you do, then skip to the next one. As an example of this we'll say you own a small mom and pop shop that sells a bunch of stuff. One of them is candy. You buy the candy straight from Hershey's in Pennsylvania. You have an account rep at Hersheys that takes your orders, which consist of maybe 4,000 dollars worth of candy (what you pay for it) every year. It's a relatively small account for this guy, and he's not even one of their senior reps. He specializes in taking care of the small guys. Still, it takes him a couple of hours a year to maintain your account and make adjustments to your supply and such, plus to colaborate with the delivery guy and have him make a trip out to your shop from time to time. Overall the candy they supply you may only cost them half of what you're paying for it, but when you add the account rep's time, their overhead costs for maintaining an additional account, the delivery guy's time, etc, etc. By the time they add all of this to the actual materials cost, their cost of selling you is relatively high. Thus they have to charge you more, not to mention being that it's a smaller account, if they want to make a worthwhile profit on such a small yearly sale, they need to build in more profit. In the end this causes you to have to charge the consumer a higher price for the exact same quality of item that the Target store down the street is charging. Why can walmart charge less for the exact same quality? Well because they purchase so many millions of dollars in candy every year, so Hersheys has significantly lower overhead costs per unit of candy they sell to Target. Furthermore, if you the shop owner demand a lower price or else you'll stop selling Hershey's candy, they're likely to look at the dismall profit they're already making on your small yearly purchase and laugh and say "go right ahead". If target threatens to do the same, Hersheys will comply in a hurry if they can possibly cut anything off of their prices. Why? Well not only is "lots of business" better than "no business" in terms of making money, but to lose Target as a seller would mean that their overall production would drop and thus their overhead for other suppliers would increase. That's the same reason group buys work on message boards!
I'm sure or at least hope most of you realize that all car manufacturers have the large majority of their raw materials and parts purchased from third party companies. They purchase the steel from particular steel mills, they even purchase parts such as lense covers on dash clusters or tail light assemblies, or wood grain or just about any other single componant of the car from individual suppliers. Those parts are then assembled per the design specs to make the car itself.
When you have a company like Lexus with a parent company like Toyota, it's like having Walmart start up a smaller specialty chain that specializes in high end products for reasonable prices. Walmart can then call their same account rep who supplies their candy for their Walmart stores, and ask their candy supplier for a higher grade of candy but at the same discount that their purchasing power from their walmart stores affords them.
Just like this Lexus can go to their same Toyota parts suppliers, and ask for a higher grade of part along with their much larger order of 'normal' grade parts, but at a steep discount despite the limited quantity because all that company wants to retain the other 90% of their business that Toyota is giving them. Furthermore, if Lexus demands that their Lexus parts meet a certain very tight standard for defective parts per million... something much much more demanding than the current industry average, the parts supplier says "Absolutely we will do it and do it with a smile." rather than "well we'll give it a shot and if it's too hard you can just find somebody else to do it"
In some cases, parts really don't have a higher grade, and thus Lexus just borrows parts from the Toyota parts bin. And anyone who knows Lexus as a company knows that if it can be made better, it will be. If it can't, then it is left alone.
This explains how Lexus can get a better deal on parts due to their parent company being Toyota. Using this logic you can see how a luxury car or any low-volume (exotic handmade italian cars come to mind) company has a much higher cost per part in relation to the quality of the part.
So now we go back to our BMW example for engineering costs. BMW now has to engineer a car from 100% scratch including all of its small accessories and parts. Lets say this costs BMW twenty million dollars because they have to do everything from the ground up. Now let's assume that BMW sells 20,000 of this model of car during its product lifetime (until they do the next ground up redesign). What is their overall cost per car to design? 10,000 dollars per car.
Now let's say Lexus has to design a similar vehicle. Well thier costs are only going to be fifteen million because five million dollars worth of quality engineering and testing from some of their other current Toyota models already answers quite a few questions their engineers would otherwise have had to spend the time and money answering for themselves, and some parts are already in the Toyota parts bin and Toyota knows already that they are not worth the cost of redesigning specifically for their Lexus models. OK so let's just say the Lexus sells the same number of this model as BMW sells of theirs... 20,000 in the product's lifetime. So now we have an engineering cost of 7500 per Lexus vehicle, whereas BMW has an engineering cost per vehicle of 10,000 dollars per car. One is not necessarily engineered better than the other, it's just that one engineering team already had an extensive cache of research and development from which to draw from and improve upon where they saw it would make a difference.
Well let's take this engineering one step further. Let's say the Lexus engineers have tweaked a few of the Toyota designs in a way that makes a nice improvement upon them without actually increasing the production cost of the vehicle. So what does Toyota get to do next time they redesign one of their cars? They can consider implementing this new technology into their new vehicle! So in turn this saves money when Toyota goes to engineer their new vehicles. And being that Toyota is the same company, well they just saved themselves some money which even if it doesn't technically show up in Lexus' accounting books, it benefits the same company in the end thus freeing up even more money for whatever it is needed for in the future.
Oh and one more thing on the note of engineering. When Toyota has 25 times the number of their cars driving around as BMW has of their cars... they have a better sample of which they can determine what designs work and what designs are faulty. This way they can recognize and correct or improve upon their mistakes or faults much more quickly than BMW.
Finally let us consider other overhead such as marketing, administration, facilities, etc. This works on the same economies of scale principle. Even though Lexus' administration and marketing and such is pretty well seperated locally... up top, they are all run by the same people making only one paycheck, and given the level of automation and corporate streamlining that Toyota can afford to do, adding Lexus as one more facility to their company does not increase Toyota's costs as a whole nearly as much as it costs BMW to operate as a lone company. In this same way, Toyota can distribute their same cache of parts through their same network to Lexus dealerships as well, saving even more money.
Anyhow... in conclusion to this and as proof: why do you think Mercedes Benz is now Daimler-Chrysler? Why do you think GM bought/merged with Saab? Why do you think Ford bought/merged with Jaguar? Because economies of scale are the only way to maintain or increase profits while supplying the consumer with a superior product in today's market.
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