Bmw lost another customer
07-22-01, 08:16 PM
#16
Rookie
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I still haven't seen any JD Power numbers for reliability. Other than someone saying something to the effect that "BMW rates down about 7th or 10th or something", we still haven't had a citation to JD Power numbers. I don't know off the top of my head where to find 'em. I see them in the paper or car magazines from time to time and the next time I do, I'll quote them. One way or the other that should end the discussion.
If the BMW reliability numbers are as I suspect, then you folks will need to stop bashing the marque on that count. If the reliability numbers are bad, then I guess you are justified. They are still great cars, in any event.
I suppose, though, that the numbers could put BMW significantly behind Lexus, yet still not be all that bad. In that case, you folks will probably still have to be quiet about the reliability thing. A few of you talk about BMW reliability like they were Yugo. Sheesh. Sure, their numbers won't be as good as Lexus, but are anyone's? It doesn't mean the cars are crap. (Seriously speaking, is Lexus always #1 in the JD Power reliability surveys?)
I said two things before. First, antedotal stories about BMWs breaking or not are worthless. (Gee, you don't suppose we could go to the BMW board and get stories of Lexus unreliabilty or other shortcomings, do you?) Someone out there surely must know where to find the JD Power numbers to scan 'em in.
Second, anyone who says "BMWs are crap" or the equivilent is a fool or an arrogant blowhard. Actually, I forgot the "arrogant blowhard" part when I said this the first time. In any event, you may prefer the Lexus for any number of reasons, as did I when I bought a GS4 instead of a 5er, but BMW makes some awesome rides.
Re: the nitwit who thinks he can get a '98 GS4 and $ for a '98 540 with a bad trans. What the hell does he smoke? What dreamer.
If the BMW reliability numbers are as I suspect, then you folks will need to stop bashing the marque on that count. If the reliability numbers are bad, then I guess you are justified. They are still great cars, in any event.
I suppose, though, that the numbers could put BMW significantly behind Lexus, yet still not be all that bad. In that case, you folks will probably still have to be quiet about the reliability thing. A few of you talk about BMW reliability like they were Yugo. Sheesh. Sure, their numbers won't be as good as Lexus, but are anyone's? It doesn't mean the cars are crap. (Seriously speaking, is Lexus always #1 in the JD Power reliability surveys?)
I said two things before. First, antedotal stories about BMWs breaking or not are worthless. (Gee, you don't suppose we could go to the BMW board and get stories of Lexus unreliabilty or other shortcomings, do you?) Someone out there surely must know where to find the JD Power numbers to scan 'em in.
Second, anyone who says "BMWs are crap" or the equivilent is a fool or an arrogant blowhard. Actually, I forgot the "arrogant blowhard" part when I said this the first time. In any event, you may prefer the Lexus for any number of reasons, as did I when I bought a GS4 instead of a 5er, but BMW makes some awesome rides.
Re: the nitwit who thinks he can get a '98 GS4 and $ for a '98 540 with a bad trans. What the hell does he smoke? What dreamer.
Last edited by NVRENUFHP; 07-22-01 at 08:21 PM.
07-23-01, 03:56 PM
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Reliability - let's end it here
OK...it seems like the nebulous "JD Power" issue is still circling in the air. So...follow the link and let the numbers tell the story:
JD Power Long Term Reliability
As you can see, Lexus is tops for the sixth year in a row and has 216 problems per 100 cars (2.16). BMW is 50% higher at 377 but still falls below the industry average of 448.
I believe Lexus cars also take honors in the "Initial Quality" survey for a few of the vehicle types. However, I think this survey is worthless because I don't car how reliable my car is within the first 90 days of ownership. I want it to keep together for the duration of my ownership. My '95 Infiniti G20 was tops in initial quality for 1995 model year but wasn't the most reliable car during my 5 years of owning it.
Thx...Doug
JD Power Long Term Reliability
As you can see, Lexus is tops for the sixth year in a row and has 216 problems per 100 cars (2.16). BMW is 50% higher at 377 but still falls below the industry average of 448.
I believe Lexus cars also take honors in the "Initial Quality" survey for a few of the vehicle types. However, I think this survey is worthless because I don't car how reliable my car is within the first 90 days of ownership. I want it to keep together for the duration of my ownership. My '95 Infiniti G20 was tops in initial quality for 1995 model year but wasn't the most reliable car during my 5 years of owning it.
Thx...Doug
07-23-01, 04:18 PM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: California
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Two More Cents
Posted this in the Maintenance section earlier.
Autocar June 20, 2001
Made in Germany by Wolfgang Konig
Popular Myth: German Cars are Utterly Reliable
‘An enviable reputation, sure – German cars tend to be built like tanks, last forever, are as sturdy as Rottweilers and utterly reliable – but how true is it?
Well, seems it isn’t true at all. Each year our German sister magazine Auto Motor und Sport, conducts a major survey questioning up to 70,000 car owners. And each year the message is unambiguous: if you want hassle free motoring, you shouldn’t buy a German car.
What you actually need is something made in Japan. Almost any Japanese car will do, apparently, and be more reliable that the best Germany has to offer.
Which, incidentally, turns out to be the Mercedes SL. In Auto Motor und Sport’s reliability league it comes 37th. The top five are the Toyota Carina, Toyota Starlet, Nissan Almera, Suzuki Vitara, and Toyota Corolla. So let’s compare that little lot with what the Germans can muster.
Mercedes’ new best seller, the C-class, comes in 49th, the Porsche 911 is 63rd, and VW Golf 95th. BMW’s 7 series is down at 114 and the Audi A6 is 133rd. Even if you think that German cars do higher mileages than Japanese ones (the survey includes cars up to three years old) those results leave the German car industry with nowhere to hide.
“We’re still fascinated by the rigour with which they follow through agreed processes,” says BMW quality expert Fritz Hartig of his Far East competitors in general, and Lexus in particular. He readily admits that BMW has yet to produce unarguable quality or reliability. Among the biggest current headaches are those complex multimedia technologies which still drive some customers to despair.
It hasn’t stopped BMW from improving its quality image, though. More than 80 percent of the German magazine’s readers now think BMW builds reliable cars, as opposed to last year’s 70 percent.
Among the German manufacturers only Mercedes fares better (90 percent), while Audi’s and VW’s reputations have suffered badly over the last two years.
A little perspective, perhaps, may help; all those prestige makes are still thought far more trustworthy than a typical Ford or Opel. Only 30 percent (Ford) and 25 percent (Opel) say these brands produce reliable cars.’
Autocar June 20, 2001
Made in Germany by Wolfgang Konig
Popular Myth: German Cars are Utterly Reliable
‘An enviable reputation, sure – German cars tend to be built like tanks, last forever, are as sturdy as Rottweilers and utterly reliable – but how true is it?
Well, seems it isn’t true at all. Each year our German sister magazine Auto Motor und Sport, conducts a major survey questioning up to 70,000 car owners. And each year the message is unambiguous: if you want hassle free motoring, you shouldn’t buy a German car.
What you actually need is something made in Japan. Almost any Japanese car will do, apparently, and be more reliable that the best Germany has to offer.
Which, incidentally, turns out to be the Mercedes SL. In Auto Motor und Sport’s reliability league it comes 37th. The top five are the Toyota Carina, Toyota Starlet, Nissan Almera, Suzuki Vitara, and Toyota Corolla. So let’s compare that little lot with what the Germans can muster.
Mercedes’ new best seller, the C-class, comes in 49th, the Porsche 911 is 63rd, and VW Golf 95th. BMW’s 7 series is down at 114 and the Audi A6 is 133rd. Even if you think that German cars do higher mileages than Japanese ones (the survey includes cars up to three years old) those results leave the German car industry with nowhere to hide.
“We’re still fascinated by the rigour with which they follow through agreed processes,” says BMW quality expert Fritz Hartig of his Far East competitors in general, and Lexus in particular. He readily admits that BMW has yet to produce unarguable quality or reliability. Among the biggest current headaches are those complex multimedia technologies which still drive some customers to despair.
It hasn’t stopped BMW from improving its quality image, though. More than 80 percent of the German magazine’s readers now think BMW builds reliable cars, as opposed to last year’s 70 percent.
Among the German manufacturers only Mercedes fares better (90 percent), while Audi’s and VW’s reputations have suffered badly over the last two years.
A little perspective, perhaps, may help; all those prestige makes are still thought far more trustworthy than a typical Ford or Opel. Only 30 percent (Ford) and 25 percent (Opel) say these brands produce reliable cars.’
07-23-01, 04:31 PM
#20
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of my bosses just told me (I brag all the time of the Club Lexus forum)
he owns a 2000 or I thinK 2001 X5 4.4L
I was talking of the GS430 and then he goes on ranting how his X5 is "falling apart"
Apparently, the rubber handles to close the door on the passenger side (front and back seats) are falling apart. By now, he is getting worked up and telling me how the heck can the passenger sides fall apart when his side is perfectly fine.
Now, he is thinking of switching back to his original idea of getting an SC430.
eKay
he owns a 2000 or I thinK 2001 X5 4.4L
I was talking of the GS430 and then he goes on ranting how his X5 is "falling apart"
Apparently, the rubber handles to close the door on the passenger side (front and back seats) are falling apart. By now, he is getting worked up and telling me how the heck can the passenger sides fall apart when his side is perfectly fine.
Now, he is thinking of switching back to his original idea of getting an SC430.
eKay
07-23-01, 04:42 PM
#21
Pole Position
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Static911
One of my bosses just told me (I brag all the time of the Club Lexus forum)
he owns a 2000 or I thinK 2001 X5 4.4L
I was talking of the GS430 and then he goes on ranting how his X5 is "falling apart"
Apparently, the rubber handles to close the door on the passenger side (front and back seats) are falling apart. By now, he is getting worked up and telling me how the heck can the passenger sides fall apart when his side is perfectly fine.
Now, he is thinking of switching back to his original idea of getting an SC430.
eKay
One of my bosses just told me (I brag all the time of the Club Lexus forum)
he owns a 2000 or I thinK 2001 X5 4.4L
I was talking of the GS430 and then he goes on ranting how his X5 is "falling apart"
Apparently, the rubber handles to close the door on the passenger side (front and back seats) are falling apart. By now, he is getting worked up and telling me how the heck can the passenger sides fall apart when his side is perfectly fine.
Now, he is thinking of switching back to his original idea of getting an SC430.
eKay
Unfortunately there are many people who have had a bad experience with their BMW, and they always seem to be the ones that make the most noise. From a personal perspective, we've had our X5 for 6 trouble-free months, my Mother drove a 1976 E12 525, also trouble-free, my uncle has a 750iL - also been a great car, and I'm expecting my 540i to give me the same. Believe me, not all BMW's are bad!
C.
07-23-01, 05:25 PM
#22
Driver
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Milwaukee WI
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cadillac reliablity..give me break
I have a 94 Cadillac Concours w/ 65k, I ve had nothing but problems. Fuel pump bad($550), both door locks broke($250 a piece) Water pump a month ago($500). The car has a rough Idle that they cant get fixed without a rep flying in from headquaters. They had the car for 3 weeks, with the top of the motor apart, checking the cams etc... They put it back together, and said sorry we cant figure it out. This is a big dealership telling me this. I had a free rental for this time, so I wasent getting upset. Even though it was a Catera (what a pile of crap)
Sorry to be talking about Cadillacs here, but it sure felt great to vent a little. Never again with Cadillac. Lexus for me.
Mike
Sorry to be talking about Cadillacs here, but it sure felt great to vent a little. Never again with Cadillac. Lexus for me.
Mike
07-23-01, 07:04 PM
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
X5 - no surprise
Originally posted by Static911
One of my bosses just told me (I brag all the time of the Club Lexus forum)
he owns a 2000 or I thinK 2001 X5 4.4L
I was talking of the GS430 and then he goes on ranting how his X5 is "falling apart"
eKay
One of my bosses just told me (I brag all the time of the Club Lexus forum)
he owns a 2000 or I thinK 2001 X5 4.4L
I was talking of the GS430 and then he goes on ranting how his X5 is "falling apart"
eKay
And if you think the X5 is bad, have you seen the numbers for the Mercedes sport-ute? It's wayyyyyyy at the bottom of the barrell (dead last by a mile).
Over and over again the most reliable cars seem to come from Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura. Most everybody else has their good spots and their bad spots. Some cars, like VW, are just bad all around (their reliability numbers suck -- in fact the VW Beetle had the worst long-term cost score that Car & Driver ever recorded!).
Oddly enough, the best improver over the past 5 years has been GM. I never cared much for their cars but more and more of them are showing up near the top of the list in every category.
Thx...Doug
07-24-01, 03:58 AM
#24
Lexus Fanatic
In one of the more recent Consumer Reports, they did a huge car study...Cars from BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc., etc.. (German) all scored low in terms of reliability.
Of course, most of the Japanese brands scored high. I left the issue at my friend's house but I'll get it and post some info...
Of course, most of the Japanese brands scored high. I left the issue at my friend's house but I'll get it and post some info...
07-24-01, 05:08 AM
#25
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: CLUBLEXUS USA
Posts: 3,736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Funny thing
Funny thing happened on the weekend. I was chillin over at my brother-in-law's BMW mechanic shop to see what cars he was fixin. He had 4 cars in there
1) 1998 540i
2) 1998 M3
3) 2000 328csi or ci or something like that
4) and guess what a frickin M5, nothing major wrong with the car. I think fuel pump broke but yet it was quite disturbing to see a brand new $80k car.
I got to snoop around all the cars, heck he even let me test drive the car with him after he finish fixing it. First we test drove the 328, and after we turned the block the car DIED OUT ?! Unfortunately he made me push it back to the shop. Hence, it was 90 degree weather
.
Next the M3 was a fun car, good handling and has power. I didn't have much time to try anything else because we only took it around the block. The 540i wasn't finish, apparenlty it had major tranny problems and it was estimated at $1800 to fix.
Go figure
1) 1998 540i
2) 1998 M3
3) 2000 328csi or ci or something like that
4) and guess what a frickin M5, nothing major wrong with the car. I think fuel pump broke but yet it was quite disturbing to see a brand new $80k car.
I got to snoop around all the cars, heck he even let me test drive the car with him after he finish fixing it. First we test drove the 328, and after we turned the block the car DIED OUT ?! Unfortunately he made me push it back to the shop. Hence, it was 90 degree weather
.Next the M3 was a fun car, good handling and has power. I didn't have much time to try anything else because we only took it around the block. The 540i wasn't finish, apparenlty it had major tranny problems and it was estimated at $1800 to fix.
Go figure
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
LexFather
Car Chat
4
05-04-08 06:23 PM
DANDADA_GS400
GS - 2nd Gen (1998-2005)
53
09-03-03 02:22 AM
