How's Lexus going to catch up to AMG and M Series
08-08-01, 04:00 AM
#16
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I thought this topic is about super high performance sedans?
The fact is that the BMW Motorsport division and MB AMG have stock cars that perform much better than anything offered by Lexus in North America at the moment.
No but, if or when.
However, let's hope that Lexus will have something out soon to keep the competition going. If enough of us demand one, they may listen and come up with a M5/E55 fighter.
As far as Acura is concerned, they don't even have a high performance sedan, let alone a super performance sedan.
No but, if or when.
However, let's hope that Lexus will have something out soon to keep the competition going. If enough of us demand one, they may listen and come up with a M5/E55 fighter.
As far as Acura is concerned, they don't even have a high performance sedan, let alone a super performance sedan.
08-08-01, 04:09 AM
#17
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No doubt CL members....If the issue at hand has anything to do with wether or not Toyota/Lexus can bring whatever THEY want to the table, I dont believe that even a SERIOUS BMW enthusiast will dispute that....
The afore mentioned Vertex Edition Aristo, with under 3k in U.S dollars invested in engine MODS, will outperform anything BMW has on the market..and still be over $10k cheaper...M5 included!!!!!!
I think THE most obvious thing that is so often overlooked in this ENDLESS debate is, how "de-tuned" the better Toyota/Lexus engines are as offered to the public...I live in a city/state where peple will mod their weed eater if given a chance.....I know of at least one "botched" attempt at moding the M5....After nearly $10k invested in a fab header, intake, and exhaust, the dyno resulted in a 5-7hp gain....Proving only that the car IS tuned well but is also close to its N/A limit as it leaves the factory...
Toyota/Lexus, as well as the Silvia motor have become the most sought after around Texas for the simple fact that what you start with is no where near where you can venture!
IMO, compared to Toyota/Lexus, if handling is eliminated from the equation, BMW does not have a leg to stand on.....not in styling, comfort, or reliability....
If you think for a moment that WHEN(not if)Lexus enters the Super-sedan market they will somehow fall short of what is expected..take two and call me in the morning....
A group of "nationally known" Supra gurus(all friends of Clint-SC300TT) from Austin made a little trip to Houston this past weekend to wreak havoc on the street scene there....All but one was driven, the other trailered until they reached Houston(all are TOTALLY street legal, unless there is a limit on how much power you can have)...One dynoed 851 rwhp on Fri., the other 804 rwhp on Sat., both on STOCK bottom ends.. That in itself should show at least some of what Toyota/Lexus is capable of.....Needless to say they freaked out some of the "BIG" city guys...
As I have said on an earlier thread...look at the trend...IMO, within the next decade the Japs will have left the Krauts to focus on battling the Brits over the re-surgance of the "Mini-cars".....Just wait and see.... Tiny
The afore mentioned Vertex Edition Aristo, with under 3k in U.S dollars invested in engine MODS, will outperform anything BMW has on the market..and still be over $10k cheaper...M5 included!!!!!!
I think THE most obvious thing that is so often overlooked in this ENDLESS debate is, how "de-tuned" the better Toyota/Lexus engines are as offered to the public...I live in a city/state where peple will mod their weed eater if given a chance.....I know of at least one "botched" attempt at moding the M5....After nearly $10k invested in a fab header, intake, and exhaust, the dyno resulted in a 5-7hp gain....Proving only that the car IS tuned well but is also close to its N/A limit as it leaves the factory...
Toyota/Lexus, as well as the Silvia motor have become the most sought after around Texas for the simple fact that what you start with is no where near where you can venture!
IMO, compared to Toyota/Lexus, if handling is eliminated from the equation, BMW does not have a leg to stand on.....not in styling, comfort, or reliability....
If you think for a moment that WHEN(not if)Lexus enters the Super-sedan market they will somehow fall short of what is expected..take two and call me in the morning....
A group of "nationally known" Supra gurus(all friends of Clint-SC300TT) from Austin made a little trip to Houston this past weekend to wreak havoc on the street scene there....All but one was driven, the other trailered until they reached Houston(all are TOTALLY street legal, unless there is a limit on how much power you can have)...One dynoed 851 rwhp on Fri., the other 804 rwhp on Sat., both on STOCK bottom ends.. That in itself should show at least some of what Toyota/Lexus is capable of.....Needless to say they freaked out some of the "BIG" city guys...
As I have said on an earlier thread...look at the trend...IMO, within the next decade the Japs will have left the Krauts to focus on battling the Brits over the re-surgance of the "Mini-cars".....Just wait and see.... Tiny
Last edited by tinygs; 08-08-01 at 04:15 AM.
08-08-01, 04:50 AM
#18
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It's deja vu all over again!!!!
Personally, I think it's reasonably clear that, beginning with the old BMW 1600/2002, BMW has been the best known example of the sports sedan. For something on the order of a geologic time scale, Mercedes built cars to an engineering standard, not a price point. Restated, BMW had the sport/luxury equation slanted to "sport" and MB took care of "luxury". And thus it was for many years.
It's only been since the advent of Lexus that MB began to attempt to compete from a price standpoint, since the LS400 very clearly targeted the V8 S class sedans, blew them out of the water and caused MB board members to soil themselves. Possibly this has something to do with MB's increased interest in trying to move over to BMW territory (remember, AMG has always been factory-approved, but it was only about 4 years ago that the factory bought controlling interest), since the (emphasis mine) THIRD LARGEST CAR MANUFACTURER IN THE WORLD obviously took dead aim at the luxury side.
So now comes performance interest by Lexus, having introduced the 2nd generation GS in 1998. US versions are not yet offered with sport suspension options since Japan perceives us as preferring softer calibrations, but elsewhere in the world, L-Tuned is available from the factory as a sport option. It seems to me that Lexus is flexing enough muscle to show that it CAN take this side of the segment, too, should it decide to. TRD could certainly be an AMG or M-Technic division with minimal change in focus. At this point, the interest seems only to be in sharing the market. Competition is good for manufacturers, and I think Toyota/Lexus realizes this. But does anyone honestly doubt that they could flat DOMINATE if such is their goal?? Considering what Lexus did to MB in 1989 with the LS, anybody REALLY think that they couldn't have done that to BMW with the GS in 1998???
BMW and MB make fine cars. They have their vehement and vocal defenders at the consumer level. But I hope that none of those defenders is naive enough to think that the Germans in the boardrooms of those marques are not paying very close attention to Lexus. Economically, they can't afford NOT TO!! They really have to try to stay out of the crosshairs lest they learn the same lesson again.
'Nuff said.
Personally, I think it's reasonably clear that, beginning with the old BMW 1600/2002, BMW has been the best known example of the sports sedan. For something on the order of a geologic time scale, Mercedes built cars to an engineering standard, not a price point. Restated, BMW had the sport/luxury equation slanted to "sport" and MB took care of "luxury". And thus it was for many years.
It's only been since the advent of Lexus that MB began to attempt to compete from a price standpoint, since the LS400 very clearly targeted the V8 S class sedans, blew them out of the water and caused MB board members to soil themselves. Possibly this has something to do with MB's increased interest in trying to move over to BMW territory (remember, AMG has always been factory-approved, but it was only about 4 years ago that the factory bought controlling interest), since the (emphasis mine) THIRD LARGEST CAR MANUFACTURER IN THE WORLD obviously took dead aim at the luxury side.
So now comes performance interest by Lexus, having introduced the 2nd generation GS in 1998. US versions are not yet offered with sport suspension options since Japan perceives us as preferring softer calibrations, but elsewhere in the world, L-Tuned is available from the factory as a sport option. It seems to me that Lexus is flexing enough muscle to show that it CAN take this side of the segment, too, should it decide to. TRD could certainly be an AMG or M-Technic division with minimal change in focus. At this point, the interest seems only to be in sharing the market. Competition is good for manufacturers, and I think Toyota/Lexus realizes this. But does anyone honestly doubt that they could flat DOMINATE if such is their goal?? Considering what Lexus did to MB in 1989 with the LS, anybody REALLY think that they couldn't have done that to BMW with the GS in 1998???
BMW and MB make fine cars. They have their vehement and vocal defenders at the consumer level. But I hope that none of those defenders is naive enough to think that the Germans in the boardrooms of those marques are not paying very close attention to Lexus. Economically, they can't afford NOT TO!! They really have to try to stay out of the crosshairs lest they learn the same lesson again.
'Nuff said.
Last edited by mooretorque; 08-08-01 at 04:53 AM.
08-08-01, 06:23 AM
#19
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2 quick points:
1) Acura does make a supersport car - the NSX
2)I don't consider AMG and M-series "stock" vehicles, as they are sport tuned versions of existing platforms.
BTW,
My wife has a 2001 330 convertible, fun to drive, that's it. If you own both a Lexus and a BMW (aka Big Money Wasted) it becomes that much easier to see the huge difference in quality. The only reason her car has less miles on it is because it spends weeks at a time in the shop.
1) Acura does make a supersport car - the NSX
2)I don't consider AMG and M-series "stock" vehicles, as they are sport tuned versions of existing platforms.
BTW,
My wife has a 2001 330 convertible, fun to drive, that's it. If you own both a Lexus and a BMW (aka Big Money Wasted) it becomes that much easier to see the huge difference in quality. The only reason her car has less miles on it is because it spends weeks at a time in the shop.
08-08-01, 06:49 AM
#20
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Originally posted by AC's TL/540i
You know, I've been patient for quite a while. It bugs me that most of the people here think that the GS is a superior car than the 540i and the E430.
.
I know this is o Lexus forum and I truly admire the GS430, but I don't believe that most of you even drove the 540i yet say that the GS is better in this, that, etc. .
With all this said, flame away...
You know, I've been patient for quite a while. It bugs me that most of the people here think that the GS is a superior car than the 540i and the E430.
.
I know this is o Lexus forum and I truly admire the GS430, but I don't believe that most of you even drove the 540i yet say that the GS is better in this, that, etc. .
With all this said, flame away...
How IN THE WORLD is an E430 and 540i superior cars over the GS????Why does my bmw mechanic brother SAY that my GS is one of the best sedans that he ever seen? Why does he NOT believe me when I said so far nothing is wrong with the car and I have over 60k on it? Why does he say that my interior honestyly beats-the-crap out of their own BMW's? Why does he say the GS has the smoothest drivetrain he has ever seen? The whole summer, I have to say, I saw ATLEAST 4 new 540i's in the shop getting some engine work? Why do I see all the bmw owners there cussing, cursing, and ranting that their cars are unreliable? Am I on Spy TV, Hidden Videos? I THINK NOT.
All this coming from one of BMW's own people?
Now, as far as the GS trying to "immitate" the E430, 540i. How are they immitating "superior" interior where MB and definately BMW falls short of? How can they "immitate" their price? How can lexus "immitate" 300 HP with the E430 and 540i falls short. How can the GS "immitate" going 0-60 in 5.7 secs?
To me it just seems that BMW and MB can't handle THE TRUTH that a car company that came out in 1989, is kicking THEIR CANDY ASSES
08-08-01, 07:45 AM
#21
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How do you delete a post?
It appears that when you log onto this site, it remembers your username and password.
I did not post the above, but my DUMB A$$ cousin did last night when I was not here.
My apologies for the ridiculous post above, and to any moderators, please delete the last tow post that appear to be posted under my username.
Fellas, C'mon, I've been on this board for 2 weeks now and I think some of you know that words like that would never come out of my mouth.
I'm a car enthusiast, and would love to see Lexus come out with an M5/E55/Jag XKR fighter.
1SickLex, GS430... I think you can back me up on this and to all GS owners on this board, I apologize for the ridiculous posts above. PLEASE delete, it gives me a bad name...
It appears that when you log onto this site, it remembers your username and password.
I did not post the above, but my DUMB A$$ cousin did last night when I was not here.
My apologies for the ridiculous post above, and to any moderators, please delete the last tow post that appear to be posted under my username.
Fellas, C'mon, I've been on this board for 2 weeks now and I think some of you know that words like that would never come out of my mouth.
I'm a car enthusiast, and would love to see Lexus come out with an M5/E55/Jag XKR fighter.
1SickLex, GS430... I think you can back me up on this and to all GS owners on this board, I apologize for the ridiculous posts above. PLEASE delete, it gives me a bad name...
08-08-01, 07:50 AM
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I read some of the replies and geez, this is getting out of hand. Guys, I did not post any of this. I an email from this forum with some AMG, topic and I'm like I don't remember posting anything on any AMG topic etc.
PLEASE DELETE the first 2 post that appear on this topic. It was not me!!
PLEASE DELETE the first 2 post that appear on this topic. It was not me!!
08-08-01, 08:34 AM
#25
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Ugh..
AC, you can delete your post with the edit/delete button at the bottom of each of your posts.
As for the Lex / Benz / BMW debate.. Going back to the MT article comparing the three "sport" versions of each sports sedans with a stock GS - it was an unfair matchup. As I stated before, the A6, the 540, and the E430 were all sport versions of those sedans. The GS430 was stock. No wonder it handled luxury-like. I don't understand why they gave it last place based on handling only? It was the fastest 0-60. It had the shortest braking distance. It clearly has the best interior and exterior styling. And because it doesn't have a suspension as stiff as the 540 sport, they place it last? Umm, hello, ever heard of L-TUNED? I'm certain that with proper modifications the GS would have won the battle. Had they compared stock versions of all four sedans, the GS would come out on top as well.
That article was junk..
As for the Lex / Benz / BMW debate.. Going back to the MT article comparing the three "sport" versions of each sports sedans with a stock GS - it was an unfair matchup. As I stated before, the A6, the 540, and the E430 were all sport versions of those sedans. The GS430 was stock. No wonder it handled luxury-like. I don't understand why they gave it last place based on handling only? It was the fastest 0-60. It had the shortest braking distance. It clearly has the best interior and exterior styling. And because it doesn't have a suspension as stiff as the 540 sport, they place it last? Umm, hello, ever heard of L-TUNED? I'm certain that with proper modifications the GS would have won the battle. Had they compared stock versions of all four sedans, the GS would come out on top as well.
That article was junk..
08-08-01, 08:37 AM
#26
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Actually, I'm very surprised my cousin would say anything like that. He owns a 98 SC400, his dad drives a 96 LS400, sister drives a 2000 RX300 and mom has 97 LX470. Talk about a Lexus family.
In any case, this is the same guy always telling me how ****ty my BMW is compared to his Lexus and how nothing is made beter.
I think he was just trying to pick a fight here, that A$$
Interesting, considering how pro Lexus he is.
In any case, this is the same guy always telling me how ****ty my BMW is compared to his Lexus and how nothing is made beter.
I think he was just trying to pick a fight here, that A$$
Interesting, considering how pro Lexus he is.
08-08-01, 08:40 AM
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Re: Ugh..
Originally posted by MrHorse
AC, you can delete your post with the edit/delete button at the bottom of each of your posts.
As for the Lex / Benz / BMW debate.. Going back to the MT article comparing the three "sport" versions of each sports sedans with a stock GS - it was an unfair matchup. As I stated before, the A6, the 540, and the E430 were all sport versions of those sedans. The GS430 was stock. No wonder it handled luxury-like. I don't understand why they gave it last place based on handling only? It was the fastest 0-60. It had the shortest braking distance. It clearly has the best interior and exterior styling. And because it doesn't have a suspension as stiff as the 540 sport, they place it last? Umm, hello, ever heard of L-TUNED? I'm certain that with proper modifications the GS would have won the battle. Had they compared stock versions of all four sedans, the GS would come out on top as well.
That article was junk..
AC, you can delete your post with the edit/delete button at the bottom of each of your posts.
As for the Lex / Benz / BMW debate.. Going back to the MT article comparing the three "sport" versions of each sports sedans with a stock GS - it was an unfair matchup. As I stated before, the A6, the 540, and the E430 were all sport versions of those sedans. The GS430 was stock. No wonder it handled luxury-like. I don't understand why they gave it last place based on handling only? It was the fastest 0-60. It had the shortest braking distance. It clearly has the best interior and exterior styling. And because it doesn't have a suspension as stiff as the 540 sport, they place it last? Umm, hello, ever heard of L-TUNED? I'm certain that with proper modifications the GS would have won the battle. Had they compared stock versions of all four sedans, the GS would come out on top as well.
That article was junk..
Thanx and I will delete the posts.
I agree, I think the MT article was kinda wacky, but as I stated, screw what they say. It's all about what you like. Frankly, I don't see how even the A6 placed 3rd. I think...I haven't read the article just going by what 1SickLex posted before.
08-08-01, 11:02 AM
#28
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Beware of trolls...They like to come in and bait an argument. I've seen it on the bimmer forums, I've seen it on the 300ZXTT forums, I've seen it on the vette forums, and they are EVERYWHERE on the Supraforums...LOL
AC TL...Glad you can clear your name so quickly...It's all good...
Brent
AC TL...Glad you can clear your name so quickly...It's all good...
Brent
08-08-01, 11:11 AM
#29
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Love this stuff
You didnt post it! Your cuz did. I suppose the race in the desert is out of the question then ****-OK, Im going out to the garage to take my 35 inchers off the GS.
Too bad, I actually was looking for a off road dirt race.
Too bad, I actually was looking for a off road dirt race.
08-08-01, 11:23 AM
#30
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HaHa...
This is why I like this forum so much. So far what I've gathered, this is the most realistic forum I've been to. Everyone is easy to talk to and everyone makes great "common sense" points.
Yeah, too bad the dirt race isn't on I was just gonna buy 35 inchers myself
Thanx guys! But the odd thing to me is why my cousin would post that since he's a Lexus nut. Who knows, like Brent says, to start an argument. And I will say this, he is notorious for going to Bimmer.org to talk smack.
Enjoy the ride gents...
This is why I like this forum so much. So far what I've gathered, this is the most realistic forum I've been to. Everyone is easy to talk to and everyone makes great "common sense" points.
Yeah, too bad the dirt race isn't on
I was just gonna buy 35 inchers myself Thanx guys! But the odd thing to me is why my cousin would post that since he's a Lexus nut. Who knows, like Brent says, to start an argument. And I will say this, he is notorious for going to Bimmer.org to talk smack.
Enjoy the ride gents...