ktrends

This thread cracks me up.

I am also one of the guys standing here with his hand up wanting a turbo over a supercharger!

Where to start...

First off weather you are bolting on a blower or turbo you are going to need the same fuel upgrades if you want to push the limits. Building your motor in a GS is pretty pointless however, these motors are so strong factory there is no need to open them up.

As for maintenance and oil leaks...

I just recently purchased my GS4 after selling my long time project Toyota supra, this car had quite a few mods including single turbo upgrade, intercooler, exh, fuel, trans etc etc.. Let me assure you there is no extra maintenance with a turbo over that of a n/a car. You simply change the oil every 3k and put gas in the car. I have owned 9 turbocharger cars in the 6 years I have been driving and have yet to see a oil leak caused by a oil feed/return line to the turbo "unless I forgot to tighten something". If anything superchargers have higher maintenance due to throwing off belts as well as slipping and shearding belts.

Check the supra out @ www.kctrends.com


There is no need to remove a/c or the luxury items from your car to make it faster "more on that in a minute". My supra retained all the comforts a/c, power everything, 19inch rims, leather power seats, it was full factory weight + an still had no problems putting down mid 11second times with 75+ thousand miles on the clock. Not to mention the fact that the GS4 motor is built better than the TT engine. The GS4 uses forged steel crank, pistons, rods, 6-bolt main block etc. The TT uses hyperutectic pistons as well as un forged rods.

As for the "street use" of a supercharger over a turbo, I would again pick the turbo. The fact that the turbo produces less wear and tear on your engine during everyday uses is something it will always have over the blower "no to mention it will never lose a belt and lave you stuck". With a turbo no load = no boost, when just driving the car the turbos does nothing, no boost, no drag on the engine, nothing..
On the supercharger however every time the motor turns over it has to drive the supercharger as well "taking power, and putting drag on the motor". Boost since being driven off the crank pulley is brought up with RPM, not load.

Anyone looking to turbo a 300 contact www.sound-performance.com they have been making n/a supra and SC300 turbo kits for a while now. They have a stock motor'd SC300 making 662RWHP with a automatic transmission. The car still retains all the creature comforts as well. Here are a few pics...







Sorry for the rambaling, it is too early for me to be up on a saturday..

Later
James

www.kctrends.com

Manaray

Ahhh...the never ending debate between turbos and superchargers...I have read about a bazillion threads (on various sites and magazine and live debates) about the Supercharger vs. the Turbocharger.

Like I've said before, I'm not a anti-Turbo person nor a Pro-Supercharger person...I think each system has it's advantages....if I was going to add forced induction to a 4-banger or I wanted to make an all out crazy *** dragster or something, I would do turbo. If I was looking to add forced induction to a V8 for some add street power (to put those M5's and M3's in their place...hehehehe...JUST KIDDING BMW people!), I prefer using a supercharger.

All the points you bring up about about turbo relability, maintenance, and whatnot are from your experiences. The vast majority of the threads I read and listened to have always placed supercharges on top of that battle. And from my OWN experience, I have seen MANY more turbo failures than S/C failures (I don't ever remember seeing a S/C failure)...but hey, milage varies....

As far as street use, for Stage 1/2 applications, I think it a S/C makes better sense. These people obviously want simple bolt-on peformance. The S/C offers that. You can't deny that installing a Turbo system in a much more involved process. Also, not all S/C produce constant heavy boost...centrifugial types (like Mo's) tend to work more like turbos in that respect...they're just driven by the crank rather than exhaust...

Also, forged pistons and what not won't mean diddly if you blow up your block. You forget that the V8's block is aluminum. Not quite as strong as iron...but I do get your point about not having to replace those internal parts...Hehehe...guess we were both thinking about different motors...

As far as parastic drag, on a V8? Come on....sure, there's parastic drag, but it's as noticable as the A/C on a V8...now on a Inline-4, drag sucks (as does the A/C!), I'll agree 1000% with you in that respect.

As for the Turbo kit for the SC300's, ToyoMoto and FMax also make kits for the SC's and the JZS-14x GS300's (pre '98). Interesting how they cost more than Mo's kit (plus install costs will be higher, pound for pound). Many of the Turbo vs. S/C threads I read also push the fact that turbos are less expensive...I dunno what they're talking about! Maybe on different cars, but definitely not on Lexus cars...

The bottom line....Porsche builds fast cars using turbos, Mercedes builds fast cars using superchargers, BMW builds fast cars with NO forced induction...so who's right? I don't think there is a RIGHT or WRONG. They're just different ways to achieve the same goal. To make fast cars. Right now, Mo's system offers Lexus owners ONE WAY to make their cars faster in a nice, simple bolt-on manner...and for V8 owners, this is currently the only way w/o going custom...

Only when someone makes a turbo kit for the V8's will this conversation get really interesting!

ktrends

This I agree on and it sucks! Maybe someday soon someone will offer a turbo as well?! <hello anyone out there?>

ktrends

All the points about turbo reliability that I speak of are not just my experiences but rather those of our customers and friends as well. "the fact that we own a few shops with a great customer base gives me a great deal of insight in to others experience as well as my own." We sell both superchargers and turbos I have seen lots of different things, such as powerdyne superchargers eating themselves from the inside out, prochargers leaking boost threw poorly made housings, vortechs need new bearings every couple of months, and the list goes on and on.

The pictures I am attaching our of one of our customers LS-1 Supercharger unit. This is one of the new "self contained units" the blower came apart from the inside causing the impeller to hit the housing which sent nice pieces of metal through the brand new cars engine.







I have pictures of some more if you would like me to post them as well.

In all the years in business I have only seen two turbo failures one was due to a bad batch of bearings from allied signal and the other was due to a blown motor sending metal threw the bearing housing.

To me there really isn't a centrifugal supercharger vs. turbo battle. It was over years ago! Why is that no auto maker uses centrifugal blowers on production cars? But yet nearly every auto maker has at some point offered a turbocharged vehicle weather it be ford, Chevy, dodge, mitsu, benz, Nissan, Toyota, etc etc...

If turbochargers fail so much then why did all these companies choose to use them for production vehicles? Don't you think there shops must of been packed with oil leaks?! Or better yet if turbo failures worry you maybe you should stop by a local truck stop and check under the hood of some of the most abused, high mileage vehicle on earth! See what those boys use to supply them with the power needed, and yet last MILLIONS of miles before needing a re-build "must carry lots of oil on board though".


Later
James

mkilty

Hi ktrends,

Welcome to ClubLexus.....

I was wondering if you can point me to the data sheet where you said the GS400 has forged pistons. That is the first that I heard of the 1UZ-FE block with forged pistons as standard equipment.

Thanks,

Michael

ktrends

I was told this by a long time lex master tech, I was told all the 1uz-fe motors even the older ls and sc cars all had the forged goodies. I can scan in the tech sheet monday, I will also search the net for it tonight..

Later
James

ktrends

Wow that was quick first website I pulled up states the 1uz-fe uses forged pistons.. It is a article about lexus progress, and the cheap used cars out there now...

here is the link
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0978/page1.html

Found another site claiming all uz motors from 89-present are using the forged internals also..

I also found this picture you guys might like



Later
james

Ebanks

You will have to do all that with a blower to get it to the same point. Turbos are just a lot more efficient no matter what size engine you have, because it is taking unused energy and making use of it, not robbing energy (not that parasitic drag is a lot, I am just using one of your points).

It seems to me like someone has told you a bunch of horror stories about turbos, but I have never had any problems with my car directly because of the turbo. I actually had more problems when I had a blower car (bearing went bad in my pulley, and also had the manifold it sat on crack).

Turbos are plenty reliable, and as far as all the fuel stuff goes fuel maxes out at the same power on a turbo or a SC... Either way all the stuff you listed is limited to the same power potential/stress.

How many of you guys would be interested in a turbo setup if I could get one developed? What kind of expectations would you have for it (be realistic if you want to run the stock internals), and also what kind of price point would it take to get you interested?

***Sorry guys, this had already been addressed, I was posting this after reading only the first page, because I was apparently too tired to realize that there were 2 pages!***

-Ethan

ktrends

You get larry and those boys to design a turbo kit for the gs4 and I would be willing to pay the price! As long as it is realestic.

Manaray

Ebanks - Well the horror stories are ones I've SEEN. I've been in the whole import scene (and street racing scene) for a long time now and I've seen/done a "little bit" in the forced induction world...granted, most of the stuff was on I4's and such (civic, integra, etc.)...

Just to clarify, the turbo's advantage I was talking about the ability to do high levels of boost. That's why I was talking about having to upgrade all that other stuff. Of course, if you want do crazy boost on a S/C, you would have to do the same, but turbos, in this instance has a better advantage because they can be made to boost higher than S/C's...as for the turbo's advantage of not robbing power vs. the minimal drag of a S/C on a V8, I don't think of it's much of and advantage.

It would great if someone developed a turbo for the V8's...it would just be another option for us. It should at least match a Stage 1 S/C in terms of power/torque gain don't you think? What are you thinking of?

Ktrends - Factory turbos and superchargers are much more reliable IMO than MOST aftermarket ones because the factory is always going keep it WELL within conservative parameters...

As for S/C's failure, anything (S/C or Turbo) that's not well made will have problems of course (especially if you really push it...I don't consider stage 1 with a 4/5 pound boost anywhere in the realm of really pushing it). The turbo problems I've seen have been with the units (faulty or just pushed too far), oil starvation, manifold, etc., etc...(and of course user errors like hot shut-downs)

I mean let's face it, if someone made an high quality turbo (or S/C) that doesn't push the limits and the installation is top notch, they shouldn't have problems...but let's also look at the fact of how much more a Turbo install is compared to a S/C install...I know you probably won't agree with me, but I believe that there's less chance for error in a S/C install than in a turbo install (I'm talking about on a NA motor of course!)...

None the less, I would really like to see a turbo kit come out for the V8's just so that we have another option...I wonder why anyone hasn't made one yet?

If anyone is really concerned with problems on either a S/C system or a turbo, just do some research...

Oh, here's a about a guy who had problems with his...(the same problem that the LS-1 S/C had is very much possible in a turbo setup too...)
http://www.mgbexperience.com/virtual.../t1trouble.htm

And here's a problem a guy had with his "beta" Eaton Supercharger...(love the part about he changed his belt DURING a race!)
http://www.miata.net/garage/billa_sebring.html

Here's a list of common turbo problems (as per Turbo Magazine)...some of which can apply to superchargers...(like debris through the intake)
http://www.turbo-power.com/probs.html

ktrends

manaray- I think this post kinda got off track. I agree 100% that the SRT blower would be a great add-on to the GS4 and make the car that much more of a monster. Also much props goes to SRT for putting forth the effort to design these kits! I just hope someday we will get more options!

Later
James

Manaray

ktrends - Hehehe...while the post did get off track, I'm glad that this was brought up. A lot of people have questions about both types of forced induction systems and I think it's good to have such lively discussion pointing out the pros and cons of each system...how else are we going to learn?

I am by no means an expert with either Superchargers or Turbos (Mo is a expert!) but I've had a decent amount of experience with them but there others on Club Lexus that have much more experience than I do and I hope that dicussions like this will prompt them to post and share their knowledge...afterall, that's what this is all about!

I too give SRT mad props for developing their S/C for Lexus owners...w/o them, we wouldn't have anything for the V8's! I also give them props for being a pioneer in this field...

I also hope that more development of alternate systems will come about...it's always nice to have options!

HKSpowerGS4

James (Ktrends),

Nice to see a fellow Ex-Supra owner on this forum. I myself had a single turbo 94 that put out 604rwhp. As Larry @ SP about it, he has seen the car a few times. I must agree with you on the turbocharger vs. supercharger issue. The reliablity and performance of a properly designed turbo kit is second to none. I deal with forced induction vehicles all the time and will have to admit, that through my experiences, I will also be turbochaged.

After I sold my Supra, I bought a 2000 GS400 and considered turbocharging it. Not that its not possible, I had sized the correct turbos for it and all, but for what fabrication was more than what I want to deal with at the time.

Ironically, I have sold the GS400 for a 98 GS300. I am currently working on turbocharging the stock 2JZGE motor for a realiable-daily driven 400 rwhp. A bolt on turbo kit should not be too far off as I will be working on the engine management aspect of it too (Fuel and Igntion Maps). So, for those othere GS300 owners, there is still hope for a Turbo kit

Will

Richie

Will, I am currently looking for a GS300 and I am interested in a turbo system when I find a good GS300.
My question is this:
How much would a good turbo system cost me?

hubbard316

I have a 98 GS300 and I want to be able to outperform a GS400. Which should I choose, a supercharger or turbo? Which would give me more off-the-line accerleration or more in the mid-range? Help because I am totally confused.