ColeTrickl

Hey everyone - first post, got on here mostly to learn DIY because I just discovered something interesting about Lexus today (which I'm sure most already know)

Bought the car brand new (2001 GS 300), have had all scheduled maintenance done and have just over 90k. Right after I got the 90k maintenance work (1-2 weeks) my check engine light came and it was the oxygen sensor got it fixed. Less than 6 months later another one went out and I took it back up there, this time it was bank 2 sensor 2. So my Lexus 'Advisor' told me that is very uncommon after I asked the chances of the third one going out. When I asked further about maybe the problem is occuring somewhere else - he assured me that they were electrical components that had failed. and further explained it by saying sometimes they go out at 5k sometimes they go out at 150k, theres just no way of knowing.

I asked "so with Lexus, its pretty much luck of the draw you just have to hope your car is the one that goes 150k?"
He said "yes, exactly."

I discovered that there was a DIY page on replacing the o2 sensor, which took the guy about 30 mins. I also asked him why it takes his professional mechanics 3 hours of labor for which it only takes a mechanically inexperienced lexus owner only 30 mins. He told me..

Lexus has flat rates for repairs, so my o2 sensor needed to be repaired and Lexus pre-determined that it takes 2 hours to replace (not including diagnostic) which is the book time. This is to protect the customer from a technician taking 6 hours for a simple job. Of course the other side of it is if the technician takes 30 minutes to do the job, he still has time to do 2 more.


To all the people who care - how is this not double-billing?

In an honest world if the technician takes 30 minutes to repair my car - he should a) charge me for 30 minutes or b) not be allowed touch a single car for the rest of the 'book time'

This is plain and simple... hours worked < hours billed

does anyone share my frustration?

TLW

Welcome to Club Lexus.

"Book Time" is an evil *****. This is how the techs make all the money.

You will learn a lot here

EDIT:

90k and all you needed was O2 sensors.. I would think that's pretty good, no?

vrferrari

To the best of my knowledge, every repair facility, regardless of make or brand, new or used, works from that same "book time" for repairs. The only difference is the hourly rates they charge.

ColeTrickl

To be honest I'm not sure if that is all that has been done. The car has been in my family since brand new, but I just recently started driving it - after 90k .. doing all I can to keep it maintained. Like I said I don't know the history but I do know this isn't the first problem.


Im not mad that it needs to be repaired, Im mad I didn't discover the borderline fraudulent billing methods until now

jcat_350

johnny, tisk tisk tisk that's how the STEALERSHIP makes the money. The techs at any given dealership only see approximately 25-30% of the cost of labor.

raytseng

Should they not be rewarded for finishing the job faster and correctly?
Would you rather have them sandbag it or futz around not knowing how to do the job properly for 3hrs and then charge you for "actual time"?

These days, especially with internet enabled service instructions (e.g. alldata) just about everyone follows book time, but as previous poster said you need to consider the difficulty of your repair with the shop rate which may correspond to their expertise.

There still are some shops that will give quotes not based on the bookrates, but you will need to call around to find them.

JeffTsai

iTrader: (1)

That's why I work on these cars on the side(sidejob/hobby) when I have free time. I get much more than what the techs at dealerships would get, but the customer still pays about half of what the dealer would charge. Everyone is happy

Oh yeah, just a comment to the Book Time. It's all really relative. Say for example replacing a headgasket, or rebuilding the engine with new pistons/rods. For someone that has never worked on that specific engine, they will not know the little shortcuts and something that can save you a lot of time. They might take as long or maybe even longer than the book time. Then the other way around, I've worked on so many 2JZ's now that I have memorized every bolt location and size on this freaking engine lol. I can do the headgasket job in around 3-4hrs. The book time for that job is like 10-12hrs or somewhere around there.

ColeTrickl

Of course they should be compensated for their work, but I don't think a 'reward' should be handed out for doing their job efficiently and correctly. If I was rewarded two or three fold for every hour I put in we'd be having this discussion on the maserati forum.

raytseng

The book describes the time that it takes to complete a job.
You're paying for the job, not for how long it took them to do it.
If you agree with that, then it seems your gripe is with the service manual for having an drastically inflated time for this particular job, unless your mechanic skipped some steps.

raytseng

Followup,
What I do hate though, is if you're charged full bookrate on clearly related jobs.

For example, from the suspension forum, if you changed your lower ball joints+tie rods, but your mechanic charged you full bookrate even though you did both of these together, that is a doublecharge where you should negotiate and clearly should be angry about.

TLW

You are 100% right. I meant that's how the dealership makes it money.

ColeTrickl

I definitely understand your perspective but that is a little oversimplified. If they stick by this then Lexus' will bill for more hours than there are in a day. Unless the technician stays by my car for the full book time we are plain and simply being double billed.

Moreover if thats how Lexus rationalizes it by 'cost of job' instead of 'labor hours' then that is how they need to quantify it when they determine book 'TIME'. Like I said I have no problem paying for 2 hours of labor to fix my car, but when they are on my dollar but not on my car - thats where I have a problem.


ADDED:

hahaha that's a good idea - charge by the job and not by the hours - thennnn see how long it really takes them

jcat_350

then tell me why to have 2 l-tuned mufflers installed, in 28 minutes, the place (not even a dealership mind you, monroe was the only place open at the time) charged me for an hour and a half of labor (90/hr) and the 2 bolts they needed to replace?

i have no problem paying the two bolts obviously but there's no reason you should charge $150 to remove 4 bolts, slip the mufflers out, slip the new ones in, and put the bolts back in.

if you're going to make a wise crack about me not doing it myself, 2 of the bolts needed to be torched off, and i do not own an acetylene torch or air tools.

the labor rates charged in the manuals are fine if it takes a similar amount of time to complete the job. In this case, i was charged $150 for a job that should have cost only about $50. You can't tell me that's fair, especially since the poor kid working there who was trying to go home since his shift was over was only being paid about 11/hr. I only paid because the job had already been done and I was fed up with their horrible customer service (even after I explained that I hadn't been given a quote based on that rate and was expecting around $50 or so.)

JeffTsai

iTrader: (1)

This is the precise reason why I started working on my car. I couldn't stand being charged that much to do some of the most simple things. Don't get me wrong, I've spent PLENTY of money on tools. But now my tool collection is nothing short of what you will find at most any garage(minus a lift...I really want a lift lol).

jcat_GS3, this is how I see it. For that job you paid $150 for. You can get a compressor and impact gun for $200 at Walmart. Then the torch for $20 at Home Depot. Yes, it's a $220 investment but any future work you do on your car that needs those tools you no longer have pay for. Also, you don't need an air gun if you put some muscle into it. A $20 torch, $25 breaker bar, $20 for sockets, and $5 for a can of lubricant to loosen the bolt. What I've also done in the past is to work on someones car and instead of them paying me for the labor, they just buy me a few hundred bucks worth of tools I needed for that job. Then in the future when I had to do that job again, I no longer need to pay for tools.

BUT I understand not everyone is the DIY type, and not everyone likes to work on cars. Just keep in mind, when you bring your car into ANY shop not just a dealership...they're going to charge more than any other car that goes in there just because it has a premium badge(Lexus) on it.

raytseng

I am not representing the business practices of every single mechanic or shop, nor every single service encounter every forum member has had.

I'm just saying like previous poster mentioned that going by the book isn't necessarily a bad thing and that it's the common practice these days more often then not.

If these things have made you mad in the past, then take the appropriate action and shop around to find a reliable but inexpensive mechanic. Be sure to call to get firm quotes before work starts and hold them to the quote. If you don't like the quote or had a bad experience, walk away and keep looking to find a shop that is more inline to your expectations.

If you believe in the free market, there should be at least one shop in your area who will buck the trend and offer cheaper prices to take away business from the shops that overcharge.
If every single shop in your area is charging about the same price for the same job, perhaps there is some other cost involved with running the business that isn't too apparent.

Edit: All skilled labor has costs. If you want to talk about ripoffs, consider what's the deal with Geek Squad or any of those big box computer repair places charging like $100 to install a video card or hard drive into your PC....