GS430 if you wear a tie to work, M3 if you don't...

 

Whitels, no disrespect at all intended but with regarding the Engine failures on the M3, this is a prime example of how a very controversial topic can be taken out of context....

Facts are, in itself very neutral. However, you are expecting the reader to draw the conclusion from your posting of the Failures of the E46 M3 engines that BMW is unreliable. When someone draws that conclusion - IT IS ONCE AGAIN A HYPOTHESIS until you can prove it. So, in a way, you are still introducing your hypothesis and speculation. What I will do is actually provide more information regarding the E46 M3 failures.

I have been following the engine failure issue of the E46 M3 for the last year now...The majority bulk of failures are occurring in the Nov 01 build date. The reason being that there was an introduction of a new rod bearing to actually improve on some of the issues that were occurring with regards to a less then .5% engine failures in the previous build dates. This rod bearing was introduced in Nov 01 build dates - BUT one or all (don't know this answer) of the factory machines were not updated with the new specs, so the rod bearing did not have correct tolerance specs. When BMW found out that the Nov01 builds were coming back with engine failures, they decided to reintroduce the old rod bearings which in essence solved the problem since the machines were not updated. So, in trying to solve a minor problem, they introduced a more major one. Kinda stupid, but these things happen...

Anyway, all of the engine failures have been replaced with new engines and so far there have been no reports of failures on the second engine. It's not really fair to bring in the engine failure issues on the M3. Those engines are very high-performance machines which will naturally introduce a higher risk for failure...

Why do you think Toyota/Lexus has not introduced a high-performance line to fight the BMW M or the MB AMG? They are way too conservative and afraid of these particular issues and want to preserve their impeccable name. Anytime, you start pushing the performance envelope then you will encounter higher risk.

Almost every magazine sets the BMW as the gold-standard for the blending of performance and luxury. With that comes great risk which, in this case amounts to quality and reliability.

In summary, if you want to be safe, go with the Lexus. If you want to push the limits of performance go with BMW M or MB AMG. I'm willing to bet though that the minute you introduce a high performance line for Lexus, you will encounter similar reliability issues. That's why my money is on the fact that Toyota/Lexus will never take that risk because they are a conservative company...

Brent

 

Amen to that. I am a little surprised though that Coldintake did not come and make a comment on this subject. I remember in his thread that he brought back alive, he corrected someone with the same info given.

 

Everyone can agree that with such high-tech machinery, especially in BMW M cars that are really pushing the edge of the envelope, that things can and will go wrong. What shocked me and made me all the more glad I dumped my Bimmer for a Lexus was the way BMW handled this situation. Even when there was overwhelming evidence that there was a systematic engine failure in that one particular run, they denied there was a problem, tried to blame drivers for over-revving the engines, and refused to replace them under warranty. It wasn't until a groundswell of BMW enthusiasts (remember, these are the guys paying 10K over sticker!) who had engine failures with the SMG and threatened a lawsuit did BMW agree, as a gesture of "goodwill" to start replacing engines. Completely unacceptable, in my book.

 

Although it totally sucks that it took a lot of complaints from BMW owners to get this going, I would put my money on the fact that Lexus would do the same thing. What makes one think that Toyota/Lexus given the EXACT same circumstances will NOT do the same thing?...business is business. We would like to think that one car manufacturer is different than another but I am sure that's not the case. Even today, you got real crappy Lexus dealers that are giving Lexus owners real grief. Just imagine if they had a high-performance, high-profile model and ran into the same problems like BMW did...I would bet you get the same response from Lexus and it would take the power of the internet/people to get them to own up to fixing their problems just like the BMW owners did...

Brent

 

Bliu,

As always, I leave it up to the person to draw the conclusion. After all, we are all mature people here. The information that you gave certainly can also be deduced from the website that I linked. So as far as I'm concerned, I gave...just the facts

But let's not get to what if Lexus did push the envelope, etc. We really won't know it until they did it--if ever they will do it.

In hindsight, something parallel was told two decades ago. That Toyota will just build econoboxes and that would be it's niche. Luxury cars? uh-OH...you've got to be kidding...

Three decades ago, I don't recall the names Subaru and Mitsubishi in the forefront of rally cars. Yes, Toyota was there with its Levin/Corolla along with Peugeot, Audi, Ford Escort RS2000, etc. The world changes so fast it's difficult to predict.

 

You're right, Brent, that Lexus might act the same way. I would like to HOPE not, but that's the kind of idealistic fool I am sometimes.

Did you know that during the first model year (1991) of Saturn, they had a huge quality problem? Apparently their antifreeze supplier sent them a bad batch and this stuff would eventually eat through hoses and whatnot. It couldn't just be flushed out--the potential for eventual damage was already there. Being a brand new company trying to prove the GM really could make import-quality cars, and knowing that their reputation was for incredible customer service, they recalled over a thousand cars and gave the owners BRAND NEW ones. Keep in mind that this problem hadn't yet caused a single failure and that some of these cars had been on the road for almost a year. They took a HUGE financial hit, but it was the right thing to do and now they have a story to brag about. They even took the returned cars and sent them to dealers with parts cut-away so customers could see the inner workings of a Saturn on the showroom floor. Brilliant! In the years since, Saturn has had two scandals similar to the BMW M engine debacle (an electrical problem with cars spontaneously catching on fire and a clutch problem with failures at around 60K miles) which they tried to cover up, refused to pay for, and eventually were embarassed into fixing. By that point, of course, the damage is done. Customer loyalty is out the window and the reputation is lowered for a generation of car buyers. BMW just screwed up--would Lexus? Or knowing what you know about them and their focus on building the best cars then backing them up with the best service, would they do the right thing?

 

M3--- sounds like a good car to short term lease, bad car to buy. Reminds me of the BMW V-8 problems a while back that were supopsedly a result of high sulfur fuel. BMW had to replace a bunch of engines on that service campaign.

I don't believe Lexus has EVER had a service campaign on the level of any of these BMW mishaps. BMW=high strung, with limited margin engineering. Lexus=conservative, high margin engineering. I've never seen a cooked 1UZ V-8 or 2JZ. The only things I've seen were worn V-6 engines from RX, ES. Seems like the techs pull those most often for ring wear by users not changing oil.

 

Because they didn't. I don't recall the exact details, but confronted with complaints of 'engine sludge' in Toyota/Lexus V6 engines (which is basically caused by OWNERS not getting their oil changed regularly) they agreed to cover any engine damage found now and any damage found for 18 months beyond warranty (I think) related to sludge provided the owner does regular oil changes. Seemed quite reasonable. Now yes, it did take some prodding/complaints from owners but the did the right thing.

 

"What makes one think that Toyota/Lexus given the EXACT same circumstances will NOT do the same thing?...business is business."

Walk in a BMW showroom floor. Then walk in a Lexus showroom floor. You don't get treated the same. But business is business.

Complain to a BMW service manager. Complain to a Lexus service manager. You don't get treated the same. But business is business.

It's the corporate culture, my friend. And it transcends the products.

 

????I have walked into many BMW showroom's and I have gotten great results. On the other hand, I have walked into a Toyota and Honda showroom and they wouldn't even let me test drive a V6 unless I was planning to buy it...so yes, business is business.

Ask folks here about Cerritos Lexus and their service horror stories...

You can't just assume your experiences are the only ones that hold true because i have just shown you different circumstances that prove my point...

So, my bottom line, is that until Lexus brings a high-performance production car onto the market, BMW is still the gold-standard in bringing high-performance cars to the market...But in looking in your signature, it seems that you are definitely loyal to Toyota/Lexus.

I honestly really don't care, but please don't bring facts out of context just to skew your own point of view...I have no beef against you too! If you like Lexus and think Lexus is superior - good for you. I on the other hand don't have a superior brand. Every car comes with it's own pluses and minuses...business is business...and that's how to sell the most cars...right?

Anyway, I respect what you are saying. I just wanted to shed some more light on the subject and do not to intend this to be a flaming post. Thanks.

Brent

 

 

I think you are going over what I said and the one actually making the assumptions. Chill out. What I said is a common knowledge and wisdom. You cannot dispute that. If you have a different experience, then let it be told.


Facts are facts and I leave it up to the person to discern the fuzz, if any.

Oh well...

Everytime I purchase a vehicle, I make sure that I read a lot of reviews, owners experiences, long-term tests, etc. I also try to do my own review by borrowing a rental car for a week to put it on its paces. I then check out the cars in its class, test drive it, and really go over it. I am an M3 fan and really looked hard on it, along with the CLK430. (Too bad, you can't get a rental- not even Newport Beach or Beverly Hills rentals have them). Bottomline is my comfort level dissuaded me from getting the MB/BMW. But I'll check them out again when it's time to replace the GS. Whether I'm loyal or not, I buy the cars that suit my taste, priorities, environment, and sense of value.

 

Scott, you can role your eyes at the comment that BMW is the gold standard for perf. sedans but that won't change the fact it is true. I am not saying everyone agrees but it certainly is the general consensus that they are the standard in performance luxury sedans. Some cars have more luxury, better service, etc. but when the road gets twisty the BMW seems to always come out on top.

As for reliability, I have posted here a hundred times that my 90hp per liter M5 has 158k miles on it and it doesn't seem to phase anyone. They simply ignore this FACT because it doesn't back up their stupid generalization. There are lots of old M6's and M5's out there with high mileage still running on original engines. Reliability vs. maintenance is where the ball is dropped. BMW's are not unreliable just expensive to maintain. The early 90's 535i will go 300k miles no problem if you take car of it. Little things will go wrong but rarely do you have engine or driveline failures.

The Honda S2000 also had quite a few engine failures. A much less visible car so they didn't get as much press. I personally know of three that grenaded at Northern Calif. roadcourses. They are pushing that envelope as well. Ferraris experience quite a bit of engine failure as well (usually replaced immediately) which has to be expected with 380hp from a tiny V8 that revs like crazy.

We shall find out soon what Toyota can do as Nissan has upped the ante big time. A 280hp 3.5 lliter isn't quite as at the ragged edge as the M3 but it is headed in that direction. If Toyota/Lexus doesn't respond they will get hammered. What's great is we are about to get a bunch of cool rwd coupes and sports sedans from Japan.

 

Which is exactly the same reason I bought a Lexus too! So I guess we wound up agreeing anyways!

BTW: I am chilled. I hope you don't take my debating with you as offensive. I actually enjoyed the spirited banter between us. If I offended you in any way, I apologize. Sometimes just words can be misunderstanding and it's better having a more personal face to face conversation - oh well...I apologize again if I ruffled any feathers! Cheers...

Brent