sarkastro

I'm looking at buying a gs430 in the next few months, and I was wondering what everyone's opinion of the Mark Levinson system was. Is it difficult to add aftermarket components to the system like it is to add stuff to a Bose system? My roomate has had to replace most of his Bose system in his Grand Prix GTP, and I don't want to have to replace a stock system that cost me 4k.

sarkastro

I read on the Q&A that an aftermarket headunit is a no go, but what I'm really worried about is an aftermarket amp and subs to throw in the trunk.

430Ride

The Levinson system by far is the best sounding auto stereo from the factory of any manufacturer (for as much as you pay for it, it should be!).

If you've got money to burn, spend it on upgrading the performance of your machine.

RealMarty

I'm also buying a GS430 soon.

I'm going with the stock audio system and upgrading the speakers to DynAudios.

From everything I've read here, it'll sound great and cost a hell of a lot less than the ML.

Just my .02

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Yeah, but many want than earth-shaking bass with giant single or dual subs in the trunk and extra amps, etc.

The ML is great for good music reproduction, but some people want to perforate eardrums.

sarkastro

I don't wanna set off car alarms when the system hits or anything, but I definitely want to feel the lows rumble through my body. I'm really starting to lean towards going with my own setup. The ML is bundled with rims that I would tank anyway, so I might as well get everything just the way I want it.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

20's are more for show than go, so I think the package you've suggested is great. Wheel looks great, although with so much 'space' the brakes are gonna look miniscule.

You might want to look at some of the pics I took at a recent meet... some shots of cars with 20s.

http://www.higginbottom.com/paul/cars/feb_meet.htm

Here's a hot pic...

Percy

The Mark Levinson system is probably the best STOCK system out there, BUT, it won't hold a candle nor have a prayer with a properly designed aftermarket system. Reason being is that ML had to do the system within budget constraints. The ML speakers are not made by ML, but rather, outsourced by another company. Also, the ML system had to fit within the requirements of the Lexus/Toyota data signal transfer. In fact, it's the same protocol used in the Pioneer and Nakamichi system.

Where ML did make a difference was in the electronics, specifically, the amp and DSP processing. Distortion levels are much lower in the ML than either the Nak or the Pioneer system. If memory serves me correctly, the Nak and Pioneer were rated at about 1 percent distortion while the ML is significantly less. The human ear can recognize or pick up distortion at around .1 percent.

What exactly are you going to change? If all you're doing to the system is a speaker swapout (Dyns or high end speakers only please...no MB Quart) then the system will satisfy many non audiophiles. Now if you're after the amps and want a better head unit then you'll have to take out the head unit, changer and the ML amp as they are NOT compatible with anything else in the aftermarket.

Bose in the GTP is known for unusual impedances as well as unusual enclosure designs. Plus the fact that they are over equalized to compensate for their design shortcomings.

As I always ask, what are your system goals? Ground pounding? Better sound quality? Choose one or the other as the two are usually not mutually possible. Even for the guys that are out in competition...there are usually compromises.

Percy
Moderator Car Audio/Car Electronics/Technical guru
Krell McIntosh Dynaudio Velodyne Monster M Series Sony ES Deflex Optima
The overkill, no compromise audio Sound Quality system.

theanimala

Percy, is it really so simple to just do a speaker swap? In my past cars (always GMs) when I replaced the speakers they seemed to have NO power what so ever. I always had to put in a new amp just to get the volume close to what it could do stock, but now the sound would be much crisper and accurate.

I have the stock system in my GS, and I am looking for the least expensive way to increase performance across the board. If a simple speaker swap will make a difference and still retain volume, then I am all for that. As much as I would love the Dynas, they are out of my budget. How about Rockford Fosgate ( I could have that name wrong... ) or another brand? If I had to change the speakers peicemeal, which do you recommend, tweeters before door midranges before subwoofer? Sorry to sound so dumb on this, I never thought I would change it at all until you guys placed the upgrade bug in my mind.

sarkastro

I was planning on just adding an aftermarket amp with a couple of 12's. My tastes lean a little more toward spl over sq, but not significantly. The mids and highs don't need to be perfect (diamond audio and infinity perfect components sound good to my ears), but I don't want the thump to overpower all other sound ranges. I would prefer to leave in the existing head unit for aesthetic reasons, but I'll remove it if I have to (which it looks like I do if I want to be happy).

Percy

The speaker swapout takes a bit of work, but it isn't difficult. You'll have to make a custom baffle so that you can use a larger speaker. Plus you'll also need a spacer ring so that the rear of the speaker doesn't hit the window as it's rolling down. Other than that, pretty straightforward.

GM...YUCK. I had a '96 Grand Prix GT (GTP Package) that was a pain to work on. The stock Delco head unit only put out around 10 watts PEAK...(around 6 watts RMS). I forgot which impedance the speakers used but I also noticed a huge decline in overall volume. With the Lexus, it's not that bad of a decline in volume. The stock Pioneer system uses a 2 ohm front speaker, 4 ohm rear speakers and a 2 ohm Pioneer sub. You'll lose a bit of volume with the fronts and definitely with the sub, but nowhere near the sharp decline as in the GM vehicles. How loud do you listen to the system?

Least expensive way of all around performance...swap out the speakers. That's all there is to it. What is your budget? If you're only going to do the speaker swapout ONCE, then get the Dyns. Drop them in and know that they're the best around in terms of sound QUALITY and extremely low distortion. Rockford Fosgates? Yuck. /A/D/S/ is pretty good as well as Diamond Audio. Focal doesn't rate too badly either. Save up for the Dyns.

If you're going to do it peacemeal, then get the midwoofers first. Dyn has a MW160 that will work just fine. They retail at 189.00 each but I'm pretty sure you can pick them up cheaper through Brad (http://www.woodyselectronics.com) or Peter Lufrano at http://www.theautophile.com The reason for the midwoofer first is because the midrange, midbass are there. 90% of the audible info is sitting at those frequencies. Then get the tweeters next and then the sub.

DO NOT take it to a shop. Do the work yourself. Take your time to get it right. Too many "punks" at the shops that I've seen, plus you expose the car to damage and later theft.

Percy

RealMarty

Percy,

I've seen you talk about the spacer ring before and I'm having trouble visualizing how/what it does. Please allow me to walk through this so you can correct any misunderstanding. I'd rather understand now than when the door panel's off.

When I visualize the door with the inner door panel and the old speaker removed, I see the metal inner door with the hole that the original speaker was mounted into and then, behind it, the "hollow" of the door with the window mechanism sandwiched in it. Then I make a baffel to mount in the hole in the door with a hole in the baffle big enough to put the magnet and the rest of the back of the speaker through it.

So, now I'm going to mount the Dyns and I see that, with the larger magnet, the speaker is so deep that, if we were to mount it to the baffle in the opening left by the old speaker, the speaker magnet will extend further into the hollow of the door and block the window travel.

So, (here's the part that I'm not sure of) we put the spacer behind the mounting flange of the speaker and run the screws first through the flange and then the spacer so the spacer moves the speaker towards the inside of the car, away from the window mechanism (and closer to the speaker grill on the inner door panel)? Correct?? If so, wouldn't a thicker baffle accomplish the same goal?

Also, could you please review how the tweeter covers on the A piller get snapped off so I can replace the tweeters as part of the DynAudio swap.

And...while I'm on a roll -- one last question.
If I decide this is more than I want to take on in my brand new GS430 that I won't even own for 3 more months (I'm particularly concerned about damaging the inner door panel when I remove it), what do I do? You don't believe I can trust even a high-end installer to do the speaker swap?

Thanks for your help.

theanimala

Marty, I found your description very well written and extremely revealing. Since I have never done this, I appreciate you taking the time to ask the questions too!

I can answer the tweeter question because I have taken the grills off of mine already. All you do is just grab a hold of it (with the door shut) and pull it towards the rear of the car. I think you can squeeze the top and the bottom just a little bit if you need to. It will not take much pressure, and the grill will just pop right out. Putting it back is just as easy.

Percy

You got it! You wouldn't want a thicker baffle. Anything more than 1/2 an inch WILL NOT FIT due to the space constraints between the metal door panel and the door panel with the decorative trim. (wood, leather, doorlocks, etc) That's why you have to use a 1/2 inch baffle with a 1 inch spacer combo.

Tweeter covers. You're better off taking the door panel apart and then the trim around the window. It's held in place by a 10mm bolt towards the tweeter and a plastic retainer. Once when these are off, you can remove the old tweeter. Much easier this way. I had to desolder the wires from the tweeter to use on the Dyn's. The tweeter installation is a little trickier since the Dyns have to be taken out of their casing and then soldered directly to the factory wires. Use a good adhesive for the rear of the tweeters. You'll have to position them just right so that they're right behind the factory grilles. Most people won't even notice anything has changed appearance wise...stealth install.

If you find a high end installer, ask to see their work. If the place is run by acne kids and a manager that's no older than 17, beware! Or if the guy is way too eager...that's another warning sign. I'd still advise you to do the work yourself!!!

Percy

RealMarty

Percy,

Thanks for the help.

I think I may have figured out a way to feel more comfortable doing the install on the new GS430 myself...sometimes I'm a little slow figuring things out.

Let's see, I'm now driving my leased 98 GS400. The new one gets bought when this one goes off lease.

Sooooo, I'm thinking the way to get a practice run is to take one of the door panels off of the GS400 to get a feel for what's involved. This way when I'm faced with the new car I won't feel so concerned about what I don't know...since I already did it.

Like I said sometimes it takes me a while to get to the obvious.

P.S. How much can a replacement inner door panel cost anyway?