doug_999

Um, with the exception of the too small wheels, I really like the ES styling.

So maybe you could say - "I personally don't like the ES styling and have come to the conclusion that I am not the targeted Lexus Customer "

dseag2

Since there has been so much discussion about the E-Class in this thread, just thought you guys might enjoy the following J.D. Power excerpt dated July 8. Full details in SC430 forum. I'll stick with my Lex, thanks...

"Japanese automakers continue to dominate in long-term durability. Lexus, Toyota's luxury brand, had the fewest reported problems, just 163 per 100 vehicles compared with an industry average of 273. Infiniti, Nissan's luxury brand, came in second with 174 problems, and G.M.'s Buick brand was third with 179 problems.

The most surprising results came from the DaimlerChrysler Corporation. Since the 1998 acquisition of Chrysler by Daimler-Benz, the question often asked is whether the company that makes Mercedes could bring respectability to a struggling American icon.

But in the J.D. Power report, Mercedes-Benz is beaten by the Chrysler Group's Chrysler and Dodge brands and only narrowly edges out Jeep. Cumulatively, Mercedes averages 318 problems per 100 vehicles compared with 295 for Chrysler."

RON430

doug_999 - I think you are pretty much right on the mark with the five pricing. I don't think it is because of less costly construction (although it might), I just don't think they have the room to get much more expensive than the ranges you posted.

bit - My techie half would love a performance tuned AWD but to dissent with the view here, I don't think the next GS will be AWD, either standard or option. Does it have anything to do with the driving experience? No. It is just the numbers. Lexus has shown little interest in exploring too small a niche. Lets throw out Audi for the time being. So what luxury/sport sedans offer AWD? I could be wrong but I think it is the 3 series and the Jag X type. Merc offers AWD on the E but I think it is only on the wagon, at least for now. So how many E type 4-matics, 330 AWDs, and X types have you seen? I may not be in "fingers on one hand" range but I am not sure I am in double digits either.

Merc and bimmer offer the AWD for something under 2K which is a buy if you are interested in it but I doubt I am, and I doubt a significant of customers have been either. And I doubt the sales numbers, which Lexus surely has, would indicate that there is great demand for AWD in this segment. Be advised, I have absolutely no knowledge of what Lexus will do, no friends in Japan (at least none that are into cars), and nothing to really base this on other than looking at the kinds of markets Lexus seems to want to address and the potential sales to be made. Do they think they could chase Audi out of the US by offering sedans with AWD? Do they care? I don't think Audi is their target. In fact I think their target is the perceived Lexus owner at this point and they are not really trying to take either bimmer or audi or maybe even Merc customers, although that surely happens because of the reliability and cost issue.

What would I like to see in the next GS? Probably a consistent evolution of the model. Don't really have any issues with the power of the 430 and still think the interior is one of the best. A freshening of the exterior with a few more inches here and there and a more refined suspension would do it for me. May not go for a first year model but could definitely be interested in a second or third year.

TXSTYLE

iTrader: (1)

I personally love the interior and visibilty and location of amenities in the INTERIOR.........But! I would REALLY like to see "More Supportive Seats". Particularly side-bolster.

RON430

TXSTYLE - As your thread has developed, has it surprised you? All the hand waving and hoopla aside, the guys here (who definitely qualify as Lexus most ardent car nut customers) really seem to be saying they want the next gen GS to be evolutionary. I always think seats can be improved, and sorry to say I still think SAAB and Volvo make or made some of the best, but I really don't need to see big changes in the GS interior and I would hate to see a bazillion little buttons and switches like the Germans are getting so fond of. I don't think Lexus has a history of radical change and that could be a very good thing for us and them.

LexFather

Yeah, our seats are okay but the SC 300/400s are much better, IMO.

Lexus will not compete in the making up for other shortcomings HORSEPOWER war cause it does not need too. Making a car with all this horsepower is to MASK the GLARING faults, from ECONO cars to LUXURY cars:

Altima-240hp, terrible interior, cheaply made
TTV-12 S 600, o-60 in 4 flat, probably won't work after 1 month

Concerning the AWD, from Lexus, they have said, the RX 330 V-6 coupled with the AWD and the hybrid engine, produces the performance of a V-8 with the fuel economy of a V-6. I have heard 0-60 in 5.5 for the hybrid RX.

SO IMAGINE, a V-8, AWD with a Hybrid engine attached, we could be talking 0-60 in 5 flat for the speed junkies


I am sure AWD will be an option, possibly standard on the GS 430.

RON430

Good Lord, the RX hybrid does 0 - 60 in 5.5? I had no idea.

Philosophically, if you were Lexus, would it ever cross your mind that a AWD sedan could take sales away from RX, GX, LX? I think these are specious arguments but I run into manufacturers all the time that are afraid a new gizmo will end up canibalizing sales from existing product.

J.P.

Let's set snow aside since I am bias from that aspect.

Does the general public see AWD as a "safety" feature regardless of where they are at? Lexus prides themselves on Safety, could this be a motive for doing the AWD?

A really SAFE, low pollution and very quick AWD Luxury Sedan without the need of a high HP engine....

You have a 5.5 0 to 60 range AWD GS that is low on emissions and wicked on gas mileage, DAMN.

Maybe that setup won't be ready within the next 18 months, but if that is the direction they are going you cannot deny it sounds pretty tasty.

ISDINGDONG

i agreed with jpa, if lexus can offer it within reasonable pricing or less expensive then the germans, why not have your cake and eat it too.

Mr Johnson

Oh please.

I'm getting tired of folks complaining about those of us who want, and in some cases really desire, an M5/AMG E-Class type 4 door sport sedan. I want one. You don't. Great! Leave me in peace and let me want it. I'll take my business to the company that is willing to build what I want. Your not wanting it doesn't make my wanting it any less of a real need or niche in the automotive world.

It seems Lexus isn't going to go down that road... fine. Will they build a very nice car? I'm sure they will. Will I want one if it doesn't have a model that in some ways rivals the M and AMG series cars. No. You may never want or need the power/handling/braking but I do.

Life is full of trade-offs. There is no absolute right answer here. Pick what trade-offs you are happy with (Price/Features/Reliability/Styling) and be happy with what you decide on.

OK. That rant off my chest let me turn my attention to the comments above.

The interior could use sprucing up for the Altima but nothing that an additional 1K in OEM costs couldn't deal with nicely. Then your point would be what? It's a bargain as-is at the price. If that's all I was willing to spend on a car I could see making that trade-off.

Othe Mercedes point. That buyer would not care if it had 400 or 600 HP. If it really didn't work in a month (nice bias there eh?) then the person who owns an S600 would be driving their E-class or some other vehicle around. To them it's probably not even a consience trade-off.

When I bought my GS I had to wonder why I would pay the kind of money for a car that didn't have:

Steering wheel mounted radio controls
No compass on base car or any sort of trip computer functions.
No rear heated seats

For me the trade-offs were worth it.

Finally... The next-gen GS/AWD question. I think it will have AWD *available* and it will look pretty similar to the concept drawing in the other thread. I doubt the high-power version will be available with AWD and I doubt we'll see a 5.0 sec hybrid GS but I'd love to proven wrong.

BTW: For me AWD is nice to have for the handling traction aspects. It's a nice side effect that it works a bit better in the snow but not my motivator, even here in the Chicago area.

LexFather

Hey, whoa, I never said I DIDN'T WANT ONE. We can all agree the M5 was THE sports sedan to have until the E55 and RS-6 showed up. Now we have 3 sports sedans fighting (R-Jag too). Now we have 439 hp V-12 BMW 760s and 493 HP V-12 Benzs and 493 HP TT V-8 Benzs STOCK!

I am all FOR more power but I think OTHER parts of the car need attention BEFORE all the attention is put in MORE POWER. For instance, I WOULD NEVER, EVER, tell ANYONE to supercharge/turbo their GS without upgrading the suspension first. It is a part of the car that needs help.

Mercedes Benz's quality is horrible. PERIOD. Why can't this money for AMG be invested in qualtiy control? Then you would truly have an amazing car. I find a trade-off as something negligable, like you said, the GS does not have heated rear seats etc. To me a trade-off is not a sacrifice I.E. quality.

I don't think it will be much cheaper. Looking at Lexus new models, the cars are only a lil cheaper if not evenly priced. Lexus wants to HOLD it's resale and PANACHE by leaving the bargain basment prices. It also increases PROFIT margins.

S55inPA

hey everybody,

as far as quality is concerned....i've had 4 Mercedes Benz automobiles....00 ML430, 00 E430, 02 ML500, and 02 S55AMG. the quality has been excellent. my service has even been better. even though the ML is supposed to be so troublesome the only problem i had so far was a confused electronic calender. maybe i'm just lucky or Mercedes Benz buyers ***** a lot over small things.

RON430

So any particular reason why you're cruising a Lexus board?

S55inPA

ahhhhh.....i like cars????

RON430

So do we but I think you will find that a whole bunch of people here have owned, or still own, audi's, bimmers, and merc's. We know that any individual can have a good experience with a car, even several. But we also know that the chances of having frequent close encounters with the service department is much, much higher with any other brand. Don't want to justify JD Power numbers (now revealed for both short term and long term ownership) but to ignore them is just plain folly. I think most of the owners here will say that merc and bimmer and audi and infiniti et. al. make some fine cars. And we certainly understand how people can choose those brands over Lexus. But the superiority of Lexus in reliability is neither new nor based on a small sample set. Very glad you had wonderful ownership experiences with your mercs but if reliability is your number one shopping priority, as it is for my wife, then anything Toyota is just hard to beat. And before the comment of the reason you would never consider buying a Lexus because it is a Toyota springs up, for many of us that is a distinct plus and nothing to be looked down upon. I haven't seen any other car manufacturer at any given price point, screw a car together better than Toyota. If anything, rather than see any individual Toyota component show up in a Lexus it is far less a negative statement about the quality of a Lexus as it is a tremendous statement as to the quality of the average Toyota that it has Lexus worthy parts in it. So when we discuss the next gen GS, we are pretty aware of what limitations the vehicle has and have opinions of how to improve them but we start with the assumption that no matter what the changes may be, they will still be far more reliable than the competition, as demonstrated for, I believe, nine years in a row on the JD Powers numbers. As I said, individual experiences may be very good with the other marques but making the argument that any (or all) merc(s) is(are) reliable as any (or all) Lexus(s) from an individual experience, is just very difficult to defend here. Maybe you should try one someday.