doug_999

It is important to note (as Ron pointed out) that there are many people who buy Toyota/Lexus products mainly for their reliability. It may not be the top reason for people on this board, but it is obviously one of the top five or so.

However, there are those (me, S55inPA, etc.) who are willing to trade a certain amount a reliability for a car that has different characteristics and priorities than the Toyota/Lexus products. There are things in these cars (BMWs for me - as we all know, Mercs for SSinPA) that appeal to us and make us want to own these cars. To put it another way, the strengths of these cars out weigh their weaknesses - for us. For others, the weaknesses of these cars outweigh the strengths.

My point is that the reliability argument only goes so far. There are other factors that go into a car decision and are weighted differently by each person.

Personally, I'm really thankful that we have the opportunity to purchase these great cars and the time to argue these points. There are others who are just happy to have a car.

Doug

Mr Johnson

LexusPride

Well, imagine paying $75k for an S430 that doesn't have a standard wood wheel, on a top-of-the-line luxury sedan, you'd have to pay another $850 to have it installed !!

LexFather

Hmmm, agreed. Thank goodness for mods.

Hameed

A M E N !!!! My car is very reliable and outhandles it's closest competitor - the 540i Sport. But as doug_999 so aptly put it - each to his own!!!

RNM GS3

This still doesnt explain why there are numerous problems on regular non-performance oriented MBs and BMWs. I could understand ur reasoning if only the AMG or M vehicles had lots of problems, then you can say i will trade some reliability for more performance. But the fact is that the regular 3 Series and regular E class are all filled with problems as well, for example, and they are not high performance cars.

A Toyota product called Supra is a very high performance car, and guess what, its RELIABLE as well. So it can be done.

Porsche, a German company, makes some of the highest performing cars in the world and they are reliable. To me, there should be no reason why BMW and MB cars have so many problems.

I visit mbworld.org at times because im a big fan of MBs, but reading so many threads of people having problems definitely makes me more hesitant to buy one in the future.

Mr Johnson

And they still sell really well meaning folks must be willing to make the tradeoffs, for whatever reasons!

Meaning you aren't willing to make the reliability tradeoff. Can you understand and accept that it's OK if others are willing to?

Amen indeed!

RON430

I don't know why some people aren't getting this. Yes, the Toyota/Lexus brand is more reliable than any other brand but that alone doesn't make the difference for a purchase decision. It is folly to think everyone will drive a Toyota/Lexus because of their reliability. Just as surely it doesn't make any difference how much hp or gadgets BMW puts in their cars, they will not get anywhere near all the customers shopping in any given price range. Just as important, tastes change. What is important to you at one point in your life may not be that important later on and some other factor may become important. Thank god that we as consumers don't have to select one $50K sedan to be available in the US but can shop for what we want among many fine automobiles. As I have posted before, the easiest car purchases are those done in passion. When you just fall in love with whatever it is. There is also nothing that says the next car you buy has to be the perfect car. I may not be in the market for bimmer or merc but I will certainly defend anyone's right to make that choice. I apologize for getting off on a tangent but a post from someone who doesn't even own a Lexus but does or has owned a handful of mercs mentioning how reliable they are just torqued me off.

Now if we could just get back to the when of that next gen GS and what we would view as an improvement....

By the way, is there unanimous agreement that the next gen will probably be out next year as a 2005?

ISDINGDONG

i think its a safe bet, fall of 04' as an 05' model

S55inPA

hey everyone,

i too am looking forward to the next gs. this is an important car for lexus. maybe even more so than the e is for mb and the 5's for bmw. with the styling of the ls leaving some people wanting more(myself included here) . this is the car that has to lead lexus for the next 3 years until a bigger and nastier ls will debut. the next generation gs has to be an attractive sporty automobile at a moderate price point. my brother has a 98gs 400 and he loves it. i've owned 12 japanese made auto's(2 honda,6 toyota,4 mitsu,and 2 acura). nobody screws them together like the japanese. i just don't like mb guys. i like a lot of different brands. in my opinion all cars are built pretty well today regardless of nameplate is on them. ok getting back to my original thought......the next gs should have a longer wheelbase with a shorter rear overhang. the top end motor has to push more than 400hp. styling should be evolutionary as opposed to revolutionary. the current model still looks good. one thing i'm amazed at is how secretive lexus has been with the gs. i would have thought someone somewhere would have got a photo of one testing. like i said in an earlier post...i don't doubt they will get the motor specs where they should be...i just hope the sheet metal is up to the task!

INHOCJP

I don't think the GS will be the "key" car in the Lexus lineup. W/ MB, the E-Class has been their high volume car. Lexus, on the other hand, has the ES and RX to pad their sales. It's too bad that Lexus has forgone tying to establish a high performance image (as see with the dropping of L-Tuned support). Back when the GS was launched in '97, there was so much hoopla about "sporty" GS. It was the first time that I saw a Lexus that wasn't vanilla. Five years after purchasing my GS, I've have nothing but great things to say about the car and Lexus service. However, I won't lie and say that I get envious seeing the E55 and the M5 and find myself wishing Lexus would build a car to compete.

doug_999

It is a very scary day when Ron and I agree so completely

ThemisN

Now THAT is what made me buy the GS4 in 98, and what will make me NOT buy it in the next body style. Remember when the GS came out there was no M5 out..no E55...but once Lexus made a sports sedan that would beat the other lexus brands top powered models, they went running back to create those super sedans.
Now..im in for an upgrade...lexus isnt up to the task bc of a lack of Ltuned sales? ARE YOU KIDDING? First off, You arent getting much straight line perofrmance from the Ltuned upgrades, so why would the sales EVER be spectacular? There are many option that would do the same exact thing in terms of small bolt on mods in addition to suspension.

So you know what..lexus can go back to being vanilla..thats fine. I will be one who REFUSES to be vanilla..who will go to the only other options, mb or bmw. Now since the m5 will be in its first year, i will hesitate to go after that..and the e55 will be in its 2nd year making that a more probable choice for many in my same shoes who want most of the kinks ironed out of a 4 door modena-killer.

J.P.

How many people really BUY and not just talk about the E55 and M5. So for those who cannot afford it, what do you have left? The E 500 and the and the new 5 series. You talk about those other brands not being “vanilla” because they have high performance lines, but the majority of people will be buying the standard issue models.

Just because they have those high performance lines, it doesn’t make their regular models any more special.


Everyone I know around here, on the boards, people I work with are always talking about these cars and no one owns them! So screw it, why toss them into every single comparison when most people are just wishing they could own one. Let’s talk apples to apples here.

ThemisN

The reason they are tossed in is because of what the GS was when it first came out. It was one of hte fastest if not THE fastest 4door production automatic sedan. That was a BIG reason I bought this car. To disregard that characteristic of the car in comparisons going forward would be wrong. Now obviously the M and AMG cars are limited production. If a lot of people you and I know owned them, I would be looking for something else to buy. I am an individual who wants a car that sticks out both aesthetically and and performance wise. I am one who doesnt understand how someone can drive a car that 100 of thousands of other people drive. Of course I am lucky to afford limited production cars. And amazingly enough, there werent all that many GS4x's made as I would have expected. Even better for me.

The thing is, though, I don't want a car the average corporate exec is gonna drive. The GS went above and beyond hte competition. It will NOT do that this time around. The E500 has an evolutionary design, the quality of the materials used is significatnly better, and within a year will hae most kinks out of it. I find it hard to believe that a corporate attitude in Toyota/Lexus where they would just want to have a car even EQUAL to that of hte e500/545 will get it anywhere even close to the success of the currentl model GS. Even if they do not compete with the m5/e55 they MUST go above and beyond in most every aspect.
Again...NO vanilla!