flipside909

Toyota's quality ratings as you've cited may be declining, but Toyota is a company of continuous improvement, and will make the necessary steps to change that. Unlike Nissan, Toyota is financially stable and has the power to make such changes to supercede it's shortcomings. Sure the ratings may show a drop in quality, but in that drop of quality, the # of units produced/sold worldwide has grown exponentially in that comparison. Sure, the more units of vehicles you have, the bigger the margin of error. No one or no company is perfect, but Toyota does have the capability to improve on that without any financial issues or a French gov't owned company taking over.

Sure Infiniti has finally woke up and smelled the coffee and taking pages and closely studying the pages from the Lexus book of success, but they are no where close to Lexus' standard of quality. The gap is closing in your opinion, but Lexus is still far beyond it's competition regardless of what new platform evolution they just created. Be it a Sentra platform evolved into a new generation Nissan or Infiniti SUV, it still will be chasing after Lexus' momentum.

Definitely, the market has changed from the last 15 years. More variety is great for the consumer. In the end, the consumer wins.

flipside909

For Nissan, it needs the help of a French Gov't owned company and a former Toyota exec to make things happen? Amazing.

jrock65

"You state "Just b/c it's a Lexus doesn't mean it's a great, popular car."

Actually that's wrong considering Lexus is the number 1 luxury nameplate in the United States for several years running."

No, there is nothing wrong with what I wrote. Not all Lexuses are hits or great cars. The current IS is a case in point. Yes, Lexus as a whole is the best selling luxury plate, mainly because of its SUVs.

The current IS never received the attention/accolades or had the sales success of the G line. Sure, you say to wait half a year for the next IS, but then by then the G will be four years old, won't it?

Main thing is I just don't buy all this "all Lexuses are destined to be great blah, blah, blah". Reminds me a lot of BMW fanboys back in the day (actually still today I guess).

marcpitch

I think Jrock and I have a problem with the attitude more than the information. I am very proficient in sales and selling and DO believe one must compare oneself to the competition. However, it must be done thoughfully without the "you-must-be-an-idiot to consider them" approach. Rockville, maybe a little more thought?

We are all friends here.

flipside909

It's not just the success of Lexus SUV's that put Lexus on the map. You may beg to differ as you only see these views in your interpretations of the company. There's a little more to it than just that sorry to say.

True the current IS never received the sucess of the current G. But then again, you're comparing a 3 year old car that was much better than the G20 that was out prior to the IS. It took Inifiniti a 3rd attempt to get it right. And frankly, they did a great job. It only took Lexus one try to aim at BMW so far, sure it hasn't received the awards that the current G has put out, but then again the IS300 got alot of attention in it's own respect. The competition is definitely there. So what if the G will be 4 years old. Every manufacturer will raise the bar a notch or two. It's nothing new.

You can do all the name calling you want and make indirect references to it. You probably forgot this was a Lexus forum. Of course the favor will be Lexus vehicles here. It doesn't say Club Infiniti on here now does it? Your arguments of the FM platorm and Nissan/Infiniti compared to Lexus are in the lines of a fanboy, but who's to say you are or you aren't? You stated your observations and ideas, I just responded with facts. Is it too hard to swallow that the Lexus brand name has grown to what it is? Whether you like it or not, they are recognized as an industry leader. Is it wrong that us owners & enthusiasts at Club Lexus are proud of what we own, drive and admire? I'm sure as an Infiniti owners, they take pride in what they drive. But fanboy? Hardly.

dseag2

Actually, I look at it a bit differently. I don't think Infiniti is studying Lexus' book at all, with the exception of improving the fit/finish of its automobiles (and every car company is doing that). It appears that they are studying BMW's book, which is a much wiser choice. BMW has commanded a premium in the market for, among other things, producing automobiles that are fun to drive. Infiniti is following their lead. Will they get there? Who knows. But at least they are establishing their own niche.

Even Acura isn't chasing Lexus anymore. They attempted that with the last gen RL, a "faux LS400", and failed. They have decided to go back to what made them successful in the beginning... providing a sporty, driver-oriented, well-equipped car at an attractive price. In the case of the RL, they went above and beyond IMHO. And I can't agree that Lexus is "still far beyond its competition"... at least at the moment... because the RL is just as quiet and luxurious as any Lexus I've owned, offers more technology, and is more fun to drive.

The GS, of course, could change that. I hope so because I'd like to have more options. However, the statement "but it's not a Lexus" just doesn't have a lot of meaning for me at the moment.

jrock65

"You stated your observations and ideas, I just responded with facts."

Interesting. You're responding with your own opinions and interpretations, just as I am. Just b/c you say them doesn't make them facts.

Example:

I said that not all Lexus vehicles are great or popular, and I pointed out the IS. You responded to the contrary and say that is "fact"?

Example 2:

Lexus is the number 1 selling lux plate in the U.S. because of it sells more SUVs than BMWs or MBs. Take SUVs out, and BMW and MB outsell Lexus. I'm not saying that this is good or bad or whatever. But it is what it is, and THAT is a fact.

You say that the IS is 3 years old and that we should wait for the new one. But when I point out that the G will be 4 years old, you say, "who cares?" If you're going to apply the "but it's an older car" excuse to one car, it equally applies to the other car.

BTW, I've owned 2 Lexuses. I've never owned Infiniti, Acura, BMW, or MB.

flipside909

Like I said previously. I did agree the current G35 is a great car. If it makes you feel better, the G35 blows alot of vehicles in it's class out of the water. I highly agree with that. In general, i was stating a fact that the Lexus brand name "in general" is very popular. I did reply saying the IS is great in it's own respects, and you are trying to imply otherwise. Perhaps I should have been more clear with what I was trying to convey. A car that has been in it's 3rd generation of production, compared to the IS that has only been in it's 1st round of course will be a no brainer. When Lexus gets a stab at that market in it's 2nd try, then we can see how far it stacks up against the competition. Fact, the G35 outsells the IS, I agree, but Lexus brand as a whole sells more than Infiniti to date.


#1 selling nameplate in the US is correct. The SUV market helped it climb to that mark yes, but they do sell many ES in the passenger car line. No doubt in my mind BMW and MB will outsell if the SUV market was out. In their own respects, the ES outsold vehicles in it's class. SUV market is the demand in North America. That's what the buyers want, that's why it sells. Lexus delivers.

Again you're interpretations are convoluted. Perhaps I make it more clear. The current IS is in it's 5th year of production, been out since early 2000 (technically the body design has been out in early 97 as a 98 in Japan). When the current G35 came out, the IS was already in it's 3rd year of production. As I stated prior, Infiniti is on it's 3rd generation of the G. It took them a 3rd try to make something that was recognized as a worthy contender. Lexus on the other hand has only had one try in this category. As I explained, it doesn't have the awards the G35 has, but it has made a name for itself in it's class. Inifiniti obviously did it's homework and brought what we know as the current G35. Sure when the new IS comes out, there will be a new contender to the game. When the G35 reaches it's peak, it's obvious it will be time for a redesign. That's a no brainer. Benchmarks are made to be risen. It's quite clear when a new model comes out someone will raise the bar in a certain category. The point being with the statement of "who cares" was...every automaker will continue to push the envelope and raise the bar. It's a never ending battle. Granted it took 3 tries for Infiniti to make a winning combo, perhaps it will only take Lexus a 2nd try to hit the mark.

Good for you. I've owned 3 Toyotas and 1 Lexus. When I was younger, I could only dream about owning a Lexus. Now I have one and will definitely buy another.

marcpitch

Can't we all get along? Purpose of this thread was not to trash Lexus and praise Infiniti. It was to point out unbiased facts about tech. options or lack thereof on 6 cylinder versions of both cars.

The thing I like most about CL is the "bi-partisanship" of its members. Let's all take a deep breath and be thankful we can afford either car.

jrock65

All these arguments and disagreements aside that will probably be endless, it seems that flip and I do agree on why the M is cheaper than the GS - partly because of more component sharing for the M relative to the GS, and partly because Lexus can simply charge more because it has more cachet and prestige.

GS is more luxury-oriented, and the M is more sport -oriented. In terms of looks, I think the GS has the worst looking front end, but the best profile in this class. The M has the best looking front end, but the profile is so-so, and the rear end is so-so as well.

BTW, does the AWD in the GS automatically and variably distribute power between the front/rear wheels like the ATESSA AWD in the M?

flipside909

Definitely agreed.

flipside909

This is taken directly from the Feb 1, 05 Press Release by Lexus USA.

https://www.clublexus.com/index.php/...iew/4297/1/10/

First All-Wheel Drive Lexus Passenger Car

Significantly, the new GS 300 features available all-wheel-drive, the first such application in any Lexus passenger car. The new AWD system uses a wet-type multi-disc clutch and planetary gear set in the transfer case. The system employs an electronic control strategy that takes inputs from driver activity such as steering and throttle angle, combined with vehicle signals from wheel speed and yaw rate sensors.

Hydraulic controls are also employed to vary the front/rear torque split ratio from 30/70 to 50/50. This arrangement allows the traditional performance advantages of a rear-drive vehicle to remain with the confidence of all-wheel traction when needed.

LexFather

Well here are facts
1. Lexus was the #1 selling import luxury brand from 92-94. (before SUVs). Caddy was the overall luxury selling champ. So 3 years into the market, it passed Benz, BMW, Acura, Audi, Jag, etc etc to be the #1 selling brand. With only 3 cars (ES/SC/LS)
2. Lexus has been the #1 selling luxury brand for 5 years. So this was before the GX was sold, the LX is a limited model and the RX was selling but less than it does now. So its not like Lexus was not selling without SUVs. Lexus saw where the market was going before the competitors or just got it right.
A. Acura came out with the SLX but that SUV was horrible and is another discontinued Acura.
B. Lexus came out with the LX 450 which became the best seller in a year. A YEAR.
C. Lexus took a chance with the car-based SUV, the RX, which now is the best selling Lexus. It TRANSFORMED what a luxury vehicle could be. Clearly, competitors think so, since Acura has the MDX, BMW the X5, the next Benz ML is car based, Infiniti has the car based FX etc etc

Buyers want the best and it reflects in sales. All these luxury brands have sales gains, TREMENDOUS sales gains in 10 years. If Infiniti sold 100k QX4s like RX 300s, they would still make it. If The SLX had sold in droves, Acura would still make it. The Acura MDX is a very hot seller for them, they would love to double sales if they could.

Volkswagon has the Tourag now, Audi will have the Q5 and 7. PORSCHE's best selling model is guess what, the Cayenne, a SUV.

53% of new vehicles sold are a SUV/Truck. Its where the market is going. Lexus would be foolish not to go there.
Finally, ain't Acura coming out with ANOTHER SUV as well, the RD-X? Of course it won't be a premium SUV, but another entry level niche filler.

LexFather

I just thought, Infiniti now has 2 SUVs, the QX56 as well. Which is the only reason Infiniti sales are barely up (like 1%). So it looks like other compaines are following suit.

dseag2

Good point. I'm totally unbiased...

I think the GS has the nicest exterior design and the RL has the nicest interior design. I don't think the M excels in either, but it provides a nice compromise in both areas. From past experience, I think the M's strength will be in the driving dynamics and visceral thrill. When all is said and done, it all boils down to personal preference and what one is looking for in an automobile. Hard to go wrong with any of them. Personally, I don't want to compromise, so if I could roll them all up into one car I'd be one happy camper.