UDel

Sandman If you look at the link that SexySC posted above on page 4 and 6 it shows the silver show car that followed after the concept. Sorry I could not figure out how to post the pictures I have of it on my computer. The show car looks a little lower, wider and seems to have a flatter nose with a different styled airdam. I wish they just reproduced exactly that car which did look like an expensive luxury car and had many people believing it was the best looking midsize luxury to come out. I was unable to drive the M but the interior was very well done and blows away the G35. Fit and finish and quality of the plastics were very good too. The wood looked better once you were close it. I just did not like the color. I wish there was a choice of a darker cherrywood and that light tan colored wood like in the Audi A8.

saabfan

Oh yeah, you're right, I saw it on an online review linked somewhere on this board not in a mag. I didn't know those were Lexus numbers. When will the magazines get real GSs to test? I would love to see the latest Motor Trend comparison with the GS thrown in the mix.

Definitely not. But it's a benchmark to which many people look. I would compromise off-the-line speed for better torque for passing ability, but 0-60s are what grab attention.

Rockville

Torque is the same as off the line speed and passing 50-80. Horsepower is for cruising fast and cutting the wind. Then you have the speed limiters.....

saabfan

Oops... I obviously am not up on my automotive physics.

To put it in layman's terms (more like terms that even saabfan can understand ), I prefer greater passing ability at 50-70 mph (does that have to do with torque bands?) than off-the-line power. Can't those be independent?

Sandman

Check out this link for a Primer on Torque and Horsepower: http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html

Maybe more math than you might want but it is a real good writeup - to add to what Rock has said.

saabfan

Thank you for the link. I actually already googled that and I'm ashamed to say that my brain isn't working at the moment. Perhaps tomorrow I'll be able to make some sense of it. Perhaps not.

Sandman

Hey SexySC - thanks for the link. I almost wrote this post before reading UDel's comments - so I looked more at the several pages of the post you mention.

I'm not sure what to think. The Nissan Fuga car on Pg 1 seems to be the same body as the Production M but with a little different take on some of the accents and grill. A lot of those pictures appear to be drawings - CAD renderings. Looks pretty nice for a Nissan.

On Pg 4 some of the pictures appear to be the same as the production M. On pg 5 I see a picture with a blacked-out grill. Looks good but still to be the Production M. Further on Pg 5 (post #71) I see the concept car you are talking about (I think). That is pretty tough looking. Very nice. I wonder why the Production M doesn't use more of the styling of the concept?

Ps - SexySC - where do you get these pictures that go with your signature?

jrock65

M35:

6.3s (MT)

M45:

5.6s (C&D)
5.3s (R&T)

Gojirra99

That's a merged thread, so some of the images are reposts that's why you see some images posted twice.

This is the concept car which obviously looks different from the M35/45 we're seeing on sale now :




As for my signature, the pictures are my cars You get your Lexus, takes pics of it & upload them in the Clublexus gallery. You can then go to the photoshop forum here & there will be members there that'll gladly design a signature for you using the pics of your car.

UDel

Sorry, it was on page 4 and 7 of the link SexySC posted that had the 2nd interation of the M I was talking about. You can notice the bottom part of the front end is integrated in the center which gave it a more aggresive elegant look where the production is broken up and seperate. There was also the white leather shifter and accents in the otherwise identical interior.

Sandman

That write-up can be found on many websites. It is a good one - but a little cerebral!

I think that the key is to try to come a way with an intuitive understanding of what torque and HP is all about. Unless you are an Engineer (yes, guilty Your Honor) the math just might give you a headache!

It is important to know that Horsepower and Torque are related (Mathematically). In fact, at 5252 RPM Torque and HP are exactly equal - in every car - because the equation that defines them says so.

I'll try to offer some things to consider. (And I hope I don't make things worse! )

** Torque is a “FORCE” (a “twisting force”). It says how much weight you can move.
** HP is a “POWER”. It says how quickly you can move that weight. It is a function of RPMs.

If you lift 100lbs 1 foot you have done a certain amount of “Work” (a physics term). Whether you move that 100lbs in 1 second, 1 minute or 1 year doesn’t matter – it is all the same amount of “Work”. Torque tells you how much “Work” you can do. The faster you do that “work” the more “Power” you are demonstrating.

In general, you want an engine that has a lot of torque at low RPMs. This way you don’t have to wait for the engine to spin up fast before doing a lot of work. You also want an engine that can keep that torque going at very high RPMs. The longer you can do this the longer you can go without shifting. The ideal engine would give you a lot of torque from idle all the way to say 30 Thousand RPMs! This way you don’t need any gearing and don’t have to shift. You would just go from 0-150 without shifting and all the way the car would pull like hell. Okay – back to reality! Practically speaking there are a few reasons why this doesn’t work. First, the faster an engine goes the more the friction builds up and causes destruction. Second, an engine can’t get enough air fast enough to sustain that many explosions per second. That is why we have superchargers and turbo chargers – to cram air into the combustion chamber – and keep torque high for longer. (The GS has the ability to vary the valve timing on both the intake and exhaust valves to help with airflow and thereby increase torque over a wider range of RPMs. ) When we reach these 2 limits (airflow and friction) the torque begins to decrease and we have to consider shifting to a higher gear to put us back into the “Power Band”. Horsepower is mathematically related to torque through RPMs. It is just something we calculate.

For any given torque, the longer the engine can spin (higher RPMs) at this torque the higher the “Horse Power Rating”. It is hard to separate torque and horsepower. They are both important. And they both help you understand this dynamic in an engine.

The new Acura RL engine produces 260 “lb-ft” of torque but you have to get all the way to 5000 RPM to get there. The GS430 produces 325lb-ft of torque all the way down at 3400 RPM. Even though they are both 300HP the 430 kicks the crap out of the RL – because it pulls a lot harder from down low and keeps pulling until about the same time the RL cuts out. (Being 200lbs lighter helps a lot too!)

The most intuitive way to think about it is: Torque is what you feel in you back when you mash the gas pedal. Horsepower is what is calculated – and is determined by how long that feeling lasts in your back before you have to shift.

Pull hard low – pull hard long!

Sandman

Ya - that concept car is sweet! Very different from the Production model.

Thanks for the info about the signature. Nice cars. However, I guess I didn't call it the right thing - I was speaking about the bathing suit shots to the left of the screen.

Rockville

That was the best explanation of Torque and Horsepower I've ever read. I am going to print that and give it to my customers. The Electric Motor/Generators offer maximum torque between 1000 and 2000 RPM's and that is why the Hybrid High Performance GS450h will be so revolutionary. When Denny Clements announces it in New York you will probably be able to hear a pin drop. When I had the GS up on a rack I kept looking for space to put the electric motor(s). There's not a lot of room. I've held the alkaline battery pack of the RX400h which is a flat 100 lb. slab. The battery output is the key. It is said that you can get between 60-75 horsepower out of each motor/generator depending on the battery capacity. The burst of power can last about 10 seconds and then starts to require battery to be recharged. Also we got to play with a model of the CVT which was made of Plexiglas. There was two Planetary gearsets placed side by side and it gave many ratio combinations controlled by another motor/generator/starter for the gas engine. If the 3.5 liter gas engine remains optimized for performance ( unlike the RX )and you add the HP of one Motor/generator you get approx. 370 to to 390 Horsepower. This may require a more exotic battery such as a lithium ion. Panasonic will have to take care of that. Expect the torque of a medium V8. We are on the threshold of a Brave New World.....A. Huxley

saabfan

Sandman, many thanks for that great summary of torque and HP. Much appreciated -- and much easier to digest! Thanks.

Car Freak

I don't quite understand what you are saying here. How long can you drive the car? What do you mean by, "the burst of power can last about 10 seconds and then starts to require the battery to be recharged"? I kind of sounds like you can get one good off the line stomp on the gas pedal and then after that, the car will only use the V6 for the rest of the drive. Sorry I don't know anything about Hybrid technology.