Test Drove Lexus GS300, GS430 & BMW 530i today
03-21-05, 11:43 AM
#16
EV ftw!!!
Originally Posted by Off
I had a E39 M5 and it had a 3.15 rear end. So did the 540iA with the sport package. I think BMW's secret is the gearing. Better acceleration, but higher engine speeds and worse mileage.
I'm not sure what the rear end on a GS430 is but I'm sure it's less than 3.15.
Different cars, different missions.
I'm not sure what the rear end on a GS430 is but I'm sure it's less than 3.15.
Different cars, different missions.
03-21-05, 11:48 AM
#17
Super Moderator
Originally Posted by chiawei
Like I said, BMW are always conservative with their numbers while Lexus is little on the high side. To this date, I have not yet seen a LS430 with 6 speed that did 0-60 in under 6 second nor does it comes with 6 speed manual (manumatic is not a manual transmission).
Yes I didn't address the GS times, & I was trying to find some souces after I posted. but as far as I know the fastest GS 0-60 times recorded is 5.7 sec.( I tried to find ithe source but haven't been successful yet) of course not all tests can get this result, what's the fastest 0-60 times for an automatic 540 have you seen.? You are just quoting edmunds results.
While I agree BMW is conservative with their numbers, I don't think Lexus's number are high, compared with Infiniti they are relatively conservative.
As for comparing the percentage difference in the cars' weights to their difference in speed relative to hp/torque, I'm not an engineer , but I am not sure you can just analyse that in the way you did, there are other factors involved, it's much more complicated than that I believe.
Last edited by Gojirra99; 03-21-05 at 11:56 AM.
03-21-05, 12:04 PM
#18
Originally Posted by AmethySC
Oh, what I meant is a 6 speed auto transmission in the facelifted LS, you didn't know that ?
Yes I didn't address the GS times, & I was trying to find some souces after I posted. but as far as I know the fastest GS 0-60 times recorded is 5.7 sec.( I tried to find ithe source but haven't been successful yet) of course not all tests can get this result, what's the fastest 0-60 times for an automatic 540 have you seen.? You are just quoting edmunds results.
While I agree BMW is conservative with their numbers, I don't think Lexus's number are high, compared with Infiniti they are relatively conservative.
As for comparing the percentage difference in the cars' weights to their difference in speed relative to hp/torque, I'm not an engineer , but I am not sure you can just analyse that in the way you did, there are other factors involved, it's much more complicated than that I believe.
Yes I didn't address the GS times, & I was trying to find some souces after I posted. but as far as I know the fastest GS 0-60 times recorded is 5.7 sec.( I tried to find ithe source but haven't been successful yet) of course not all tests can get this result, what's the fastest 0-60 times for an automatic 540 have you seen.? You are just quoting edmunds results.
While I agree BMW is conservative with their numbers, I don't think Lexus's number are high, compared with Infiniti they are relatively conservative.
As for comparing the percentage difference in the cars' weights to their difference in speed relative to hp/torque, I'm not an engineer , but I am not sure you can just analyse that in the way you did, there are other factors involved, it's much more complicated than that I believe.
The GS430 5.7 second is what is claimed by Lexus and like the claim made on the LS430 which no one has come close. I believe the closest one as by MT on the old GS400. The new GS430 were actually slower than the GS400.
I know the LS got the 6 speed automatic, but with one extra gear iratio t does not really reduce the 0-60 time by that much. It helps, but not enough to overcome the BMW.
Lexus number are generally consistent, (slightly on the high side). But not that bad. So i am not bashing lexus. I am just stating that BMW's number are always more conservative. If you put BMW on the dyno, you will be amazed how much of the stock HP are transfered to the wheel compare to other japanese make. Even though both could be rated the same at crank, often BMW will have more power to the wheel. This is base on my own experience.
Prior to S/C my 530i, my 01 530i put more HP on the rear wheel than my wife's TL did on the front wheel. Althought not by much, you have to be amazed because the e39 is rear drive and there is additional powerloss from the drive shaft, and TL was rated slightly higher than 530i (torque).
03-21-05, 12:32 PM
#19
Super Moderator
Originally Posted by chiawei
. . . The GS430 5.7 second is what is claimed by Lexus and like the claim made on the LS430 which no one has come close. I believe the closest one as by MT on the old GS400. The new GS430 were actually slower than the GS400 . . .
Anybody that has driven both a pre-2004 LS430 & a 04+LS430 should be able to tell the latter feels more responsive, by how much faster, i did not time it, it's not really that significant in the real world.
Last edited by Gojirra99; 03-21-05 at 12:38 PM.
03-21-05, 01:05 PM
#20
Originally Posted by AmethySC
You refer specifically to the GS430 in your posts above, but I never specifically refer to the GS430, & yes I know it has the drive-by-wire & feels slightly sluggish compared to the GS400, but it's Motor Trend that tested the GS400 with 0-60mph at 5.7 second, so it's not just a claim made by Lexus, this LINK HERE should put that to rest.
Anybody that has driven both a pre-2004 LS430 & a 04+LS430 should be able to tell the latter feels more responsive, by how much faster, i did not time it, it's not really that significant in the real world.
Anybody that has driven both a pre-2004 LS430 & a 04+LS430 should be able to tell the latter feels more responsive, by how much faster, i did not time it, it's not really that significant in the real world.
Toyota has been caught before supplying cars that has higher output then what they sell to the press (the 1993 Supra Twin Turbo). So yes, the old GS400 did post a sub 6 second run. But you have to take that with a grain of salt, since back in 1997, it was 1st car that lexus made that can challenge on the performance front.
03-21-05, 01:26 PM
#21
Lexus Connoisseur
Originally Posted by chiawei
Toyota has been caught before supplying cars that has higher output then what they sell to the press (the 1993 Supra Twin Turbo).
03-21-05, 01:29 PM
#22
Super Moderator
Originally Posted by chiawei
I know about the GS400's number back in 1997. But the problem with that is no one since has come close to that number with the GS. Espeically when the torque went up with the new 4.3V8 in 2001.
Toyota has been caught before supplying cars that has higher output then what they sell to the press (the 1993 Supra Twin Turbo). So yes, the old GS400 did post a sub 6 second run. But you have to take that with a grain of salt, since back in 1997, it was 1st car that lexus made that can challenge on the performance front.
Toyota has been caught before supplying cars that has higher output then what they sell to the press (the 1993 Supra Twin Turbo). So yes, the old GS400 did post a sub 6 second run. But you have to take that with a grain of salt, since back in 1997, it was 1st car that lexus made that can challenge on the performance front.
03-21-05, 03:00 PM
#23
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by RNM GS3
GS vs 5 Series
lexguynj,
Not really sure why this is a tough decision for you. They are both great cars but in very different ways.
5 series is a hardcore SPORT sedan with great power and handling, and it comes with a manual. I test drove the 545i and i came away extremely impressed with its power and handling. BUT i hate how it looks.....Its just a very ugly design, and i even like the 7. Another thing is the interior is just HORRIBLE. It looks and feels cheap. Then ofcourse there is the reliability factor. The one i test drove had a light in the dash saying the car had a flat tire, which was incorrect.
GS is not as responsive or will handle as well as the 5.....But the handling part can be upgraded with aftermarket parts at least. The new GS looks GREAT also, nobody will say "That car is ugly." But the best thing about the car is the interior. Once u sit in the new GS, you feel like a KING. Its so comfortable and everything looks and feels of great quality.
To me, the GS's Style and Luxury outweigh the small amount of performance it gives up to the 5.
lexguynj,
Not really sure why this is a tough decision for you. They are both great cars but in very different ways.
5 series is a hardcore SPORT sedan with great power and handling, and it comes with a manual. I test drove the 545i and i came away extremely impressed with its power and handling. BUT i hate how it looks.....Its just a very ugly design, and i even like the 7. Another thing is the interior is just HORRIBLE. It looks and feels cheap. Then ofcourse there is the reliability factor. The one i test drove had a light in the dash saying the car had a flat tire, which was incorrect.
GS is not as responsive or will handle as well as the 5.....But the handling part can be upgraded with aftermarket parts at least. The new GS looks GREAT also, nobody will say "That car is ugly." But the best thing about the car is the interior. Once u sit in the new GS, you feel like a KING. Its so comfortable and everything looks and feels of great quality.
To me, the GS's Style and Luxury outweigh the small amount of performance it gives up to the 5.
Pricing aside, I should compare the 530i vs the GS300. The 530i feels quicker (current 225HP version), handles and corners tighter, has a nice tight steering wheel feel and a beautiful exhaust noise. The Exterior and Interior looks are subjective (I happen to love the Exterior and the interior although not as nice as Lexus is still decent).
The GS300 is a good car in every respect, the power is decent, everything about this car is good (except the rims, but that can always be changed). However good is not enough when you are in the market for Sports Sedan and want something that is so fun to drive you just think about driving all the time. Sure I will feel good surround by the beautiful Lexus interior but the goal is not to feel good inside, but to be inspired when driving this sports sedan.
Do I want to spend more money on aftermarket parts on a $45K+ new vehicle, because I am not happy with the stock suspension, rims, etc?? I say it shouldn't have to be this way, since when you buy a new vehicle at this price, you should have it all.
03-21-05, 03:09 PM
#24
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by jroosh
I test drove the 530 recently and had a couple of impressions as well.
1. Lack of value. The 530 didn't even have Nav and it was already $53K
2. Although I appreciate BMW hanging tough with the inline 6, this one sounded like a light truck. BMW engines used to sound better, sort of like a smooth turbine-like hum.
3. Cheap interior: The seatback recline control button jammed half the time I tried to use it. The model on the show floor did the same thing. Also, the temp controls for the climate system had a rough, almost like sand in the gears feel and sound. Unexcusable in a luxury car let alone a fifty thousand dollar one
4. I-Drive. Sucks. I couldn't change the radio station without pulling over the first time
5. Check out JD Power and get ready to get intimate with the service department. No thanks.
6. Styling. I like the outside. I think it's a much better looking car than the GS, 2nd or 3rd generation. The 5's inside is small and stark. Good riddance Mr. Bangle. He ruined the 7, and luckily for BMW, wasn't unleashed to the same degree on the 5.
in short, I decided I can put some more miles on my GS and wait for the GS460 or whatever it is going to be when the bigger V8 arrives.
1. Lack of value. The 530 didn't even have Nav and it was already $53K
2. Although I appreciate BMW hanging tough with the inline 6, this one sounded like a light truck. BMW engines used to sound better, sort of like a smooth turbine-like hum.
3. Cheap interior: The seatback recline control button jammed half the time I tried to use it. The model on the show floor did the same thing. Also, the temp controls for the climate system had a rough, almost like sand in the gears feel and sound. Unexcusable in a luxury car let alone a fifty thousand dollar one
4. I-Drive. Sucks. I couldn't change the radio station without pulling over the first time
5. Check out JD Power and get ready to get intimate with the service department. No thanks.
6. Styling. I like the outside. I think it's a much better looking car than the GS, 2nd or 3rd generation. The 5's inside is small and stark. Good riddance Mr. Bangle. He ruined the 7, and luckily for BMW, wasn't unleashed to the same degree on the 5.
in short, I decided I can put some more miles on my GS and wait for the GS460 or whatever it is going to be when the bigger V8 arrives.
1. Value for the Money - Lexus is still a better value for the GS430, although a loaded GS300 can top at $50K and I am not sure if a GS300 at that price is worth it.
2. The BMW Engine sounds great and you can't beat that sound.
3. The interior is not as nice as Lexus, but it's still not that bad that I couldn't live with it. The Logic7 Sound systems is as good as ML.
4. IDrive is incovenient, but you can work with it. It's not deal break for me.
5. Quality. OK this is where everyone will try to scare you off with their BMW nightmare quality experiences. Before I bought my first BMW, I too was apprehensive of the quality and had always bought Japanese cars before. However after driving the BMW, I couldn't resist pulling the trigger one, since it was so fun to drive. However I have been lucky and had good service experience and very few issues (maybe I am just too lucky - knock on wood). You can't beat Lexus reliability, but BMW'S reliability is still above average.
6. Exterior Look - Subjective - I like it. Makes the old generation (I have now) look very outdated.
7. I too would wait for the GS450 or GS450h, 460 if I could. I mean how can you resist not getting the new V8 enginer with all that additional HP, especially if it's only a year away? I mean you can't go wrong with the current Lexus V8 and 300HP, but we are all just too spoiled and love to get the latest and greatest!
03-21-05, 04:32 PM
#25
Pole Position
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: WA
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Obviously you like everything about BMW more than Lexus, you think their chassis is better, their engines are better, their styling is on par and reliability is not really an issue.
Conclusion:
Buy BMW.
Most here buy Lexus because they think it is much pretier than the BMW, it has a much nicer interior, they dislike the concept of the i-drive, trust the probability of the Lex to give them much less trouble and either think it is worth to add aftermarket for better handling, or better still think it is not lacking in the first place... you hold none of these view...conclusion: Buy BMW.
Good luck with you new Bimmer
Conclusion:
Buy BMW.
Most here buy Lexus because they think it is much pretier than the BMW, it has a much nicer interior, they dislike the concept of the i-drive, trust the probability of the Lex to give them much less trouble and either think it is worth to add aftermarket for better handling, or better still think it is not lacking in the first place... you hold none of these view...conclusion: Buy BMW.
Good luck with you new Bimmer
03-21-05, 04:37 PM
#26
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by IsraelRX
Obviously you like everything about BMW more than Lexus, you think their chassis is better, their engines are better, their styling is on par and reliability is not really an issue.
Conclusion:
Buy BMW.
Most here buy Lexus because they think it is much pretier than the BMW, it has a much nicer interior, they dislike the concept of the i-drive, trust the probability of the Lex to give them much less trouble and either think it is worth to add aftermarket for better handling, or better still think it is not lacking in the first place... you hold none of these view...conclusion: Buy BMW.
Good luck with you new Bimmer
Conclusion:
Buy BMW.
Most here buy Lexus because they think it is much pretier than the BMW, it has a much nicer interior, they dislike the concept of the i-drive, trust the probability of the Lex to give them much less trouble and either think it is worth to add aftermarket for better handling, or better still think it is not lacking in the first place... you hold none of these view...conclusion: Buy BMW.
Good luck with you new Bimmer
03-21-05, 04:57 PM
#27
Originally Posted by AmethySC
What evidences do you have that supports your claims other than just saying it ? I haven't heard about what you say about the Supra so I won't comment .We are talking about the GS here.The way you are arguing, you can take any times posted with a grain of salt for any car. It's quite common for a model to have performance numbers vary by 1/2 a second or more from different sources, so I suppose you can always question the fastest time posted since the others cannot get the same times. There are many different enviromental factors(altitude for example)plus others involved that can affect the results, I think you're simplifying things just to suit your needs, it's rather pointless to discuss further as far as I'm concern, I' m done with this thread.
What are you talking about?
Yes, toyota has been caught before when new supra was introduced in 1993. Just do a search on google. Toyota admitted they increased the boost on the pre-production car to the press. It's a well known fact.
I will go dig up additional data on the GS400. I believe the subsequent test done by both MT and Car and driver never matched the 5.8 and 5.7 they measured the 1st time around on the GS400.
The fact of the matter is that when 2001 rolled around the GS430 did not benefited from flatter and more torque. Simple as that. The GS430 at 300 HP and 325lb-ft of torque was slower in 0-60 as compare to a 10% heavier car with less output.
BTW, the 7 series and LS430 test was done at same time. I believe that C&D also tested the GS400 and 540i in the same test back in 1998 and was not able to match the original numbers.
The truth is simple. Toyota had history of supplying higher tuned car to the press during the pre-production. just google it.
03-21-05, 05:00 PM
#28
Pole Position
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: WA
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by lexguynj
I am not your blinded by BMW owner lurking on a Lexus Forum. I have had a 01 GS430, 04 RX330 and now a GX470, so I am a consumer that buys both Lexus and BMW. This is a forum where we compare and can discuss. My next buy is a mid-size sports sedan, so the final choices are between the GS and BMW. I have 2 great salesman at Lexus and BMW, so it doesn't make things easiers.
Sorry if I was misunderstood.
Maybe you should try the IS350 to replace your 3-series
Cheers...
03-21-05, 07:24 PM
#29
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by chiawei
Suite my needs?
What are you talking about?
Yes, toyota has been caught before when new supra was introduced in 1993. Just do a search on google. Toyota admitted they increased the boost on the pre-production car to the press. It's a well known fact.
I will go dig up additional data on the GS400. I believe the subsequent test done by both MT and Car and driver never matched the 5.8 and 5.7 they measured the 1st time around on the GS400.
The fact of the matter is that when 2001 rolled around the GS430 did not benefited from flatter and more torque. Simple as that. The GS430 at 300 HP and 325lb-ft of torque was slower in 0-60 as compare to a 10% heavier car with less output.
BTW, the 7 series and LS430 test was done at same time. I believe that C&D also tested the GS400 and 540i in the same test back in 1998 and was not able to match the original numbers.
The truth is simple. Toyota had history of supplying higher tuned car to the press during the pre-production. just google it.
What are you talking about?
Yes, toyota has been caught before when new supra was introduced in 1993. Just do a search on google. Toyota admitted they increased the boost on the pre-production car to the press. It's a well known fact.
I will go dig up additional data on the GS400. I believe the subsequent test done by both MT and Car and driver never matched the 5.8 and 5.7 they measured the 1st time around on the GS400.
The fact of the matter is that when 2001 rolled around the GS430 did not benefited from flatter and more torque. Simple as that. The GS430 at 300 HP and 325lb-ft of torque was slower in 0-60 as compare to a 10% heavier car with less output.
BTW, the 7 series and LS430 test was done at same time. I believe that C&D also tested the GS400 and 540i in the same test back in 1998 and was not able to match the original numbers.
The truth is simple. Toyota had history of supplying higher tuned car to the press during the pre-production. just google it.
Lexus/Toyota have ZERO interest in having the BEST 0-60 times or the HIGHEST HP #s. None of their cars are class leaders in those 2 categories. Not because they can't be but because that is not what Lexus/Toyota focuses on. Lexus/Toyota has REFUSED to become part of the HP wars. Their target customers dont read Car and Driver or Motor Trend. They read Consumer Reports.
Lexus/Toyota sells cars because of solid reliability, solid value, and great quality.......NOT because of LYING about the performance of their cars.
BTW i will take a 98 GS400 against any other 98 4-door sedan, if it did 0-60 in 5.7 seconds or 6.0 seconds it doesnt matter.
03-22-05, 04:32 AM
#30
Originally Posted by chiawei
no, there are more factor to be taken into consideration.
- power/torque throughout the rev range
- gearing
- weight of the vehicle
Reason 3/5 series were fast with old 3.0 engine was due to all 3 of those - while that engine appeared to be underpowered, it also had a lot of torque. New 3.0l engine barely improves on the torque and it will be hard for 530i to be much faster than similar GS300, because it has LESS torque, and it will be even harder for 330i to fight against IS350 because it will have a lot less of everything.
Now, you dont really care about all these "silly" arguments, you will still say that BMW is faster somehow... thats all good.