Test Drove Lexus GS300, GS430 & BMW 530i today
03-22-05, 08:20 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by IsraelRX
I didn't mean to imply you were. and applaud you on actually going and driving both. All I say is that from everything you write it is obvious you want the 5-series...So there is really no point in the argument.
Sorry if I was misunderstood.
Maybe you should try the IS350 to replace your 3-series
Cheers...
Sorry if I was misunderstood.
Maybe you should try the IS350 to replace your 3-series
Cheers...
03-22-05, 09:40 AM
#32
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Go with the BMW. Gotta have variety in your garage. You got the new Lexus (GX). Honestly, it's a tough choice between a GS430 and a 530i since they are very close in price. If price is a big factor, it will depend on what options you are looking for in each car. The Lexus is likely a better value for your money. However, if you value driving and the fun factor, you have to go with the BMW.
On a side note, my family test drove the GS300 AWD. We liked the nice luxurious and technological features it had, but we can never buy this car. Lexus cannot make 6-cylinder engines. The car felt sluggish, and didn't feel any different from our ES330. For the price of a GS300AWD, we would definitely opt for a smaller more potent car (same price range) such as the C350 4Matic or 330xi.
However, I could be wrong. Lexus could make good 6-cyl engines when needed/wanted. The IS350 apparently goes 0-60 in low to mid 5 seconds.
On a side note, my family test drove the GS300 AWD. We liked the nice luxurious and technological features it had, but we can never buy this car. Lexus cannot make 6-cylinder engines. The car felt sluggish, and didn't feel any different from our ES330. For the price of a GS300AWD, we would definitely opt for a smaller more potent car (same price range) such as the C350 4Matic or 330xi.
However, I could be wrong. Lexus could make good 6-cyl engines when needed/wanted. The IS350 apparently goes 0-60 in low to mid 5 seconds.
Last edited by Nas; 03-22-05 at 09:45 AM.
03-22-05, 10:27 AM
#33
Originally Posted by Nas
Go with the BMW. Gotta have variety in your garage. You got the new Lexus (GX). Honestly, it's a tough choice between a GS430 and a 530i since they are very close in price. If price is a big factor, it will depend on what options you are looking for in each car. The Lexus is likely a better value for your money. However, if you value driving and the fun factor, you have to go with the BMW.
Only problem might be that 530i equipped the same as GS430 costs some 3k more...
03-22-05, 02:44 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by spwolf
indeed...GS430 might be more luxurious, but 530i will swipe it down in power department..
Only problem might be that 530i equipped the same as GS430 costs some 3k more...
Only problem might be that 530i equipped the same as GS430 costs some 3k more...
- Steptronic (Auto)
- Navigation
- Premium Sound (Logic 7)
- Sports Package
- Premium Package
- Destination
Total MSRP - $56,070
GS430 - MSRP - Around $58K (V8 and more bells and whistles)
A V8 over a V6 should be a no brainer, however something makes me still hang on to this 5 series as a serious contender.
03-22-05, 02:49 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by Nas
Go with the BMW. Gotta have variety in your garage. You got the new Lexus (GX). Honestly, it's a tough choice between a GS430 and a 530i since they are very close in price. If price is a big factor, it will depend on what options you are looking for in each car. The Lexus is likely a better value for your money. However, if you value driving and the fun factor, you have to go with the BMW.
On a side note, my family test drove the GS300 AWD. We liked the nice luxurious and technological features it had, but we can never buy this car. Lexus cannot make 6-cylinder engines. The car felt sluggish, and didn't feel any different from our ES330. For the price of a GS300AWD, we would definitely opt for a smaller more potent car (same price range) such as the C350 4Matic or 330xi.
However, I could be wrong. Lexus could make good 6-cyl engines when needed/wanted. The IS350 apparently goes 0-60 in low to mid 5 seconds.
On a side note, my family test drove the GS300 AWD. We liked the nice luxurious and technological features it had, but we can never buy this car. Lexus cannot make 6-cylinder engines. The car felt sluggish, and didn't feel any different from our ES330. For the price of a GS300AWD, we would definitely opt for a smaller more potent car (same price range) such as the C350 4Matic or 330xi.
However, I could be wrong. Lexus could make good 6-cyl engines when needed/wanted. The IS350 apparently goes 0-60 in low to mid 5 seconds.
03-22-05, 07:47 PM
#36
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agree
as Fugly as e60 is compared to e39, and how pretty gs430 is, BMW is still a driver's car. Maybe the new engine for 2006 5 will help you.make your decision,. gs430 just is not a drivers car. it still rolls on lane changes, tranny just not all tht great ,and for me seats are horrible, hard as a rock. yet no support. .
03-22-05, 09:09 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by jyg es3
as Fugly as e60 is compared to e39, and how pretty gs430 is, BMW is still a driver's car. Maybe the new engine for 2006 5 will help you.make your decision,. gs430 just is not a drivers car. it still rolls on lane changes, tranny just not all tht great ,and for me seats are horrible, hard as a rock. yet no support. .
03-22-05, 09:16 PM
#38
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Performance tests always vary because of human input
Originally Posted by chiawei
no, there are more factor to be taken into consideration.
The GS430 5.7 second is what is claimed by Lexus and like the claim made on the LS430 which no one has come close. I believe the closest one as by MT on the old GS400. The new GS430 were actually slower than the GS400.
I know the LS got the 6 speed automatic, but with one extra gear iratio t does not really reduce the 0-60 time by that much. It helps, but not enough to overcome the BMW.
Lexus number are generally consistent, (slightly on the high side). But not that bad. So i am not bashing lexus. I am just stating that BMW's number are always more conservative. If you put BMW on the dyno, you will be amazed how much of the stock HP are transfered to the wheel compare to other japanese make. Even though both could be rated the same at crank, often BMW will have more power to the wheel. This is base on my own experience.
Prior to S/C my 530i, my 01 530i put more HP on the rear wheel than my wife's TL did on the front wheel. Althought not by much, you have to be amazed because the e39 is rear drive and there is additional powerloss from the drive shaft, and TL was rated slightly higher than 530i (torque).
The GS430 5.7 second is what is claimed by Lexus and like the claim made on the LS430 which no one has come close. I believe the closest one as by MT on the old GS400. The new GS430 were actually slower than the GS400.
I know the LS got the 6 speed automatic, but with one extra gear iratio t does not really reduce the 0-60 time by that much. It helps, but not enough to overcome the BMW.
Lexus number are generally consistent, (slightly on the high side). But not that bad. So i am not bashing lexus. I am just stating that BMW's number are always more conservative. If you put BMW on the dyno, you will be amazed how much of the stock HP are transfered to the wheel compare to other japanese make. Even though both could be rated the same at crank, often BMW will have more power to the wheel. This is base on my own experience.
Prior to S/C my 530i, my 01 530i put more HP on the rear wheel than my wife's TL did on the front wheel. Althought not by much, you have to be amazed because the e39 is rear drive and there is additional powerloss from the drive shaft, and TL was rated slightly higher than 530i (torque).
03-22-05, 09:30 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by Rockville
Today when the GS450h is unveiled you will see some real torque on demand and it will be applied at the rear axle so don't worry about it getting lost on the way. What will BMW have to say about that? Just trying to imagine the look on all of the proud German faces is pretty funny but back to the drawing board Ve vill go .......
Sure we all look forward to the GS450h and the BMW 550i (coming out this fall), HP in the 360+ range with all the latest gadgets for each vehicle and monster power, etc....
The GS450h will be ground breaking, HOWEVER if Lexus does not also offer a true sports package option / version for this model, then they continue to lag behind BMW in creating a driver's sports sedan, a car that not only looks good on paper and in person, but is INSPIRING.
Lexus VIDM, AVS and Sport Mode are all good efforts, but when you have to appeal to people that also want a comfy ride and offer only one trim level, then you sacrfice other aspects like handling, cornering, etc...in an effor to make every type of buyer happy. Maybe Lexus's marketing plan is to not go this route and concentrate on the more luxury aspect. However a BMW stock 5 series still can handle and corner better than a GS430. It's just different engineering in a car (German vs. Japanese). Different Philosophy?
Either way, the future looks great for sports sedans and the tougher competition puts us, the consumer in a great position when in the market to get a new vehicle!
03-22-05, 09:57 PM
#40
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BMW's are excellent but not perfect either..
My experience with people who buy exotic cars is that they don't race their Ferrari or Aston Martins. They are almost collectibles. The ones who can afford high end sport sedans usually don't drive them to 50% of their potential anyway and the nameplate can be just as important to them. They mostly baby these wonderful cars. Here at Club Lexus there is a tradition of Mods to their GS and IS series. BMW in particular makes you pay a la carte for things that are just included in many Lexus. Lexus just is more reliable and sometimes BMW owners get tired of the constant headaches despite the performance aspect. What I'm trying to say is that the buyers aren't rally drivers but enjoy a nice car from stop light to stop light and can afford the best. The Controller Area Network is BMW's Achilles heel and Lexus is catching up or surpassing BMW in performance. The BMW case is just not as compelling as it used to be. You still must pay a premium for the old Bavarian Airplane Propeller badge. Lexus has moved into the future with Hybrids and even Porsche has joined them because they can't do it themselves.
03-22-05, 10:11 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by Rockville
My experience with people who buy exotic cars is that they don't race their Ferrari or Aston Martins. They are almost collectibles. The ones who can afford high end sport sedans usually don't drive them to 50% of their potential anyway and the nameplate can be just as important to them. They mostly baby these wonderful cars. Here at Club Lexus there is a tradition of Mods to their GS and IS series. BMW in particular makes you pay a la carte for things that are just included in many Lexus. Lexus just is more reliable and sometimes BMW owners get tired of the constant headaches despite the performance aspect. What I'm trying to say is that the buyers aren't rally drivers but enjoy a nice car from stop light to stop light and can afford the best. The Controller Area Network is BMW's Achilles heel and Lexus is catching up or surpassing BMW in performance. The BMW case is just not as compelling as it used to be. You still must pay a premium for the old Bavarian Airplane Propeller badge. Lexus has moved into the future with Hybrids and even Porsche has joined them because they can't do it themselves.
When you buy a vehicle over $50K+ why must you spend the time in the aftermarket to further modify your $50K+ car? Many people on CL enjoy modding their cars, I guess I am too old for this and don't have the time, so I expect more for my money when test driving or finally driving the vehicle off the lot.
We are also talking about a Sports Sedan here, not a luxury cruiser like the LS. We not only want the power, but everything else that is associated with a Sports Sedan, because we don't consider a car like this just a commuter car, we desire driving this vehicle because it's so fun.
We all pay premiums for the brand name. Lexus is a premium name plate and people will buy Lexus (including myself) over a Toyota name plate without any hesistation.
Also the BMW reliablity issue is real, but BMW'S reliability is still above average and it's a well built vehicle with the same warranty as Lexus and in addition Full Schedule Maintenance for 4 years / 50K miles.
03-24-05, 03:26 PM
#42
Originally Posted by RNM GS3
WTF are you talking about??? Are you serious?
Lexus/Toyota have ZERO interest in having the BEST 0-60 times or the HIGHEST HP #s. None of their cars are class leaders in those 2 categories. Not because they can't be but because that is not what Lexus/Toyota focuses on. Lexus/Toyota has REFUSED to become part of the HP wars. Their target customers dont read Car and Driver or Motor Trend. They read Consumer Reports.
Lexus/Toyota sells cars because of solid reliability, solid value, and great quality.......NOT because of LYING about the performance of their cars.
BTW i will take a 98 GS400 against any other 98 4-door sedan, if it did 0-60 in 5.7 seconds or 6.0 seconds it doesnt matter.
Lexus/Toyota have ZERO interest in having the BEST 0-60 times or the HIGHEST HP #s. None of their cars are class leaders in those 2 categories. Not because they can't be but because that is not what Lexus/Toyota focuses on. Lexus/Toyota has REFUSED to become part of the HP wars. Their target customers dont read Car and Driver or Motor Trend. They read Consumer Reports.
Lexus/Toyota sells cars because of solid reliability, solid value, and great quality.......NOT because of LYING about the performance of their cars.
BTW i will take a 98 GS400 against any other 98 4-door sedan, if it did 0-60 in 5.7 seconds or 6.0 seconds it doesnt matter.
My point is that with same rating at the crank, BMW HP shows up more to the wheel. Simple as that.
You do have to question that with upgraded V8 since 2001, why it couldn't beat a heavier and less powerful car. I am just stating that on German cars, the HP rating is very conservative. Hence, you do see a difference in performance.
BMW does not make its own gear boxes. All of it are off shelf. So BMW is not doing anything magical on the transmission or the axles. There is a different in engine output, simple as that.
I am simply responding to previous post.
Actually, Toyota has been proven to do that in the past. So this is a mute point. HP does sell cars despite what you claim. Why do you think People is flucking to RX400H?
Why do you thnk IS350 will now have 280HP. It sells. Simple as that.
03-24-05, 03:38 PM
#43
Originally Posted by spwolf
what factors? You are not giving an facts, you are giving your opinions... There is a lot of difference there. Main factors in 0-60 times are:
- power/torque throughout the rev range
- gearing
- weight of the vehicle
Reason 3/5 series were fast with old 3.0 engine was due to all 3 of those - while that engine appeared to be underpowered, it also had a lot of torque. New 3.0l engine barely improves on the torque and it will be hard for 530i to be much faster than similar GS300, because it has LESS torque, and it will be even harder for 330i to fight against IS350 because it will have a lot less of everything.
Now, you dont really care about all these "silly" arguments, you will still say that BMW is faster somehow... thats all good.
- power/torque throughout the rev range
- gearing
- weight of the vehicle
Reason 3/5 series were fast with old 3.0 engine was due to all 3 of those - while that engine appeared to be underpowered, it also had a lot of torque. New 3.0l engine barely improves on the torque and it will be hard for 530i to be much faster than similar GS300, because it has LESS torque, and it will be even harder for 330i to fight against IS350 because it will have a lot less of everything.
Now, you dont really care about all these "silly" arguments, you will still say that BMW is faster somehow... thats all good.
I gave you all the fact.
Simple as that.
1. You have not come up with valid counter argument.
Let's look it one by one.
E39 540i has 10% more weight, 3% less torque and at higher RPM. It beats a higher torque GS430 with flatter torque curve.
So where is my lie?
Same holds true for old E39 530i vs GS300.
Also take a look at gearing at both 540i/530i vs GS430/GS300. You will be amazed that this is not a factor in BMW's favor either.
So on all three items you mentioned, BMW actual has disadvantage on Paper.
2. NO it does not.
Compare to GS, the E39 is heavy. So you are wrong on that. GS are about 10% lighter than E39.
The old 3.0 L6 has 214 lb-ft of torque vs GS300's 225 lb-ft of torque.
GS is also lighter and i believe more agressively geared than E39.
So you are totally incorrect.
3. E90 330i manual has been clocked to be faster than 06 GS430 in 0-60. This is a truth. You are talking out of thin air.
The E60 530i with new engine is only 80lbs heavier this time around (E60 cut quiet bit of weight from E39). What makes you think that with less than 5% extra weight between E90 and E60 that 530i 6 speed will add more than 1 second to 0-60.
E60 530i 6 speed manual will be neck and neck with GS430 automatic. Simple truth.
BMW with automatic will suffer some performance loss (usually around 0.3 to 0.5 second). Which means the E60 530iA with new engine will be a low 6 second car. The current E39 530i is not slow compare to the new 06 GS300.
If you want to make a valid counter argument, please do your homework 1st.
We all know for sure that E90 330i is a sub 6 second car because C&D has already proved that. We do not know that IS350 will be since no one has tested one. So your claim is mute.
Imagination has no effect on reality.
03-24-05, 03:41 PM
#44
Originally Posted by lexguynj
2006 BMW 530i
- Steptronic (Auto)
- Navigation
- Premium Sound (Logic 7)
- Sports Package
- Premium Package
- Destination
Total MSRP - $56,070
GS430 - MSRP - Around $58K (V8 and more bells and whistles)
A V8 over a V6 should be a no brainer, however something makes me still hang on to this 5 series as a serious contender.
- Steptronic (Auto)
- Navigation
- Premium Sound (Logic 7)
- Sports Package
- Premium Package
- Destination
Total MSRP - $56,070
GS430 - MSRP - Around $58K (V8 and more bells and whistles)
A V8 over a V6 should be a no brainer, however something makes me still hang on to this 5 series as a serious contender.
Then again, I wouldn't do that to a new car and burn the clutch.
03-24-05, 03:59 PM
#45
Originally Posted by Rockville
The 2004 LS430 with the new 6 speed transmission improved the 0-60 sprint from 6.3 down to 5.9 seconds so there goes that theory of yours. I have heard from Lexus engineers that the new GS430 goes about 5.6 seconds though the official line is 5.7. You are right that the object is to get the power to the pavement however and sometimes we lose sight of that. The BMW and its performance mystique are not invincible anymore. The Ultimate Driving Machine sometimes will spend all day having software patches downloaded. It is in the shop statistically twice as often for repairs than the Lexus counterpart. I too like the balanced feel of both a BMW 6 cylinder and the V8 on a track. I wonder how they get that type of feel with a strut suspension? The current Lexus 4.3 V8 engine had some emission controls added that made the performance equal to its 4.0 predecessor. Torque went up some and it has been a trouble free engine for Lexus and used in three models. I have never seen one fail. TL is a front drive and not comparable IMO even though there are probably less hassles owning an Acura then a BMW. Today when the GS450h is unveiled you will see some real torque on demand and it will be applied at the rear axle so don't worry about it getting lost on the way. What will BMW have to say about that? Just trying to imagine the look on all of the proud German faces is pretty funny but back to the drawing board Ve vill go .......
That's what Lexus claimed. But no one has come close to getting that 5.9 figure in all the test. Some as worse as 6.4 second. Therefore my theory is more than perfect, infact not theory at all, since is based on fact.
On the other hand BMW 745i were right no the mark at 6.0 and 6.1 on two different test. One was conducted same time during the same test with LS430.
TL is not comparable. You are indeed correct. Because rear drive will have additional power loss due to the drive shaft from the engine to the rear wheel which TL does not have. But the funny thing is that the 530i pulled a higher torque and HP to the rear wheel than TL did on its front wheel.
GS450H- I am sorry. I still don't understand why people would go for a performance hybrid.
1. For people who is buying a perfomance car- fuel economy and eco benefit is not a concern. Ultimate perfomance is a must.
2. A performance sport sedan with 300 HP just does not cut it. The new V8 on the competition is pushing over 350HP right now. (Mercedes has a new 5.8V8, BMW has 5.0V8). Both should kill GS450H.
The old 745i with its excessive weight compare to E60 550i and significantly less output did 0-60 in 6 second flat. A 400 lb lighter 550i with 360 HP will be significantly faster.
If you are going to place GS450H to be a performance sedan, you will need at least close to 400HP. Not to mention that you really do not have full 400HP all the time.
Yes, new BMW has tons of software issue but most of them are now I-drive issues and mechancially since late 2004, the cars are fine.
BMW has a lot of quality issues (well more like lousy software programming), mechanically they are quiet sound (except the one batch of the M3). The talk of BMW quality problems is way overkill. So far BMW quality although not as good as lexus has been steadily on the climb and is better than industrial average.